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| bogus | The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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...and I think my master cylinder might be an accomplice.
The second time this year I laid into the brakes and the pedal went to shit... almost to the floor. My system is: 1992 LT1 Grand Sport calipers (13") OEM rotors Hawk street pads Goodridge SS Lines I do know my brake fluid is a little old, but it is good Valvoline Synpower. I feel the calipers could use a quick rebuild, which I will do ASAP, they have about 110k on them... But the pedal has me more annoyed. Driving back from Pasadena, I had reached the 105 interchange when one car does a 180 in the #2 lane and the car that caused it comes careening into my path. I saw it unfold and watched the car come into my path and nearly wipe me out. I missed him by no more than 10"!!! It was scary, to say the least... I stopped... but I wouldn't call it fast enough. The pedal went almost to the floor... and that was not good. So... where to get a good master cylinder from? And whilst we are at it, where can I get a good set of clutch hydraulics? Thanks! |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 1:18
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| CSS996 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Mega Guru
 
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How are your SS lines? I posed a question as to SS vs. Kevlar a long time ago on a motorcycle forum. Most said stainless were really best left to racing applications, due to the fact they deteriorate from the inside out.
Conventional wisdom was that in racing applications, the lines would be checked, if not replaced regularly. Not sure if it applies to automotive or not. Just throwing it out there. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 2:28
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Good point.
They are Goodridge brand, and are supposedly DOT approved. They have a teflon core. I installed them in Oct 2001 when I did the GS upgrade. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 2:33
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| jhammons01 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Only a few things it could be....
Blow By in the Master Cylinder. Was your car running hot? Caliper o-Rings allowing blow by. Rubber lines ballooning. If you have intermittent brake pedal issues...I'd look at the M/C first....They usually act up when hot and thermal expansion takes place. By the way, your Avatar won today... |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 3:38
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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The master was installed when I did the brake upgrade in 2001. So age might have caught up.
I don't have rubber, I will update the OP, I have SS lines. The car was at full op temp, so yes, heat could have been a factor. The coolant temp was at 195 or so. yea, saw that - er, heard that! I was in Pasadena and was listening in on Sirius. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 3:54
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| BillH | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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The Stig Moderator
 
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Quote:
They should be fine. I've never seen one go bad. There were a few problems that guys had when they bought cheapos and the fittings weren't installed correctly. The good brands last a long time. I have one set on a racecar that are probably 25 years old, no problems. The ss lines can't cause your problem without leaving a big puddle of fluid in the driveway and if so, you wouldn't get the pedal to come back. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 13:20
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| dan0617 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Really truly sounds like a little bit of air in the lines. The only times I have ever experienced a mushy pedal and did not have a puddle of fluid on the floor was air in the lines. Bleed the shit out of it, like 10 or 12 cycles of "open bleeder, floor brake, close bleeder, release brake" for each wheel, make sure to keep refilling the master cylinder after about 4 times. I'll bet that fixes your problem. A tiny bit of air is almost unnoticeable under normal stopping, but is very noticeable under hard stopping.
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 14:14
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I was going to rebleed the brakes before doing anything else... thanks for confirming my thought there.
Still, if I need to get a new master cylinder, what is the best one to get? Or are they all reman'd junk? |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 14:19
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| dan0617 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Wish I could help you there but I can't. I'm still running my stock '89 master cylinder. Been through 2 plastic brake boosters, now have a metal one on it, and just yesterday installed a DRM brake bias spring. Amazing the master cylinder is still good with my shortcut taking when I work on things. Like when installing the bias spring I did it with the MC on the car. Took the big nut off and couldn't get the guts out with a mechanic's pick for nothing. So I jumped in the driver's seat and floored the brake pedal very quickly. Shot the guts right out like a bullet. Put it all back together and all is fine. And when installing the brake booster, I pried on that thing like it was made of steel. I'm really bad when it comes to shit like that. I need morer patience. Anyway, back on topic....
I wouldn't know which master cylinder to tell you to get should you need one, maybe a used stock one would be better than a reman? When bleeding the brakes on these cars it takes forever because of the ABS system. There is alot of line distance and such. Also, because of the pump, I've always bled the brakes with the car running. Never had any luck with the car not running unless it is a non-abs car. I'd try it with the car idling, or maybe you already do. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 14:29
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| BillH | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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Bleeding the brakes can't hurt but, a little air in the system will not cause the pedal to go almost to the floor. It's the m/c.
If you hit the pedal with the engine off, it should be rock hard. If there's a bit of air in a line, it will feel a little spongy. The only way that a pedal can go almost to the floor is if the fluid is bypassing the seals in the m/c or if there is an external leak. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 14:34
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| dan0617 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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With air in the line, especially on a car with ABS, when the car is off it can still feel rock hard. I've had that happen before. At any rate, the first step is for sure to bleed the hell out of the brakes. If not that, then master cylinder. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 14:37
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| BillH | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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I'll agree with that, Dan. But if the pedal's going to the floor, it's not a little air in the system, there would have to be a bunch of air for the pedal to go down that far. And I'd think that wuld be noticable in normal driving. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 14:47
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| CentralCoaster | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Andy, this is easier to diagnose if you keep your reservoirs wiped clean on the outside.
If the master cylinder seal doesn't seat and the pedal goes to the floor like this, brake fluid under pressure shooting past the seal will spray up into the reservoir, either blowing the cap off, or at least spraying enough around it that some brake fluid leaks past and drips down the sides. Either way, this isn't something you mess around with. The only other possibility I see is your booster pushrod is barely too long and sometimes preventing your m/c piston from backing up all the way to the port for the reservoir. Having a fixed amount of fluid in there could cause your caliper pistons to retract when the brake pedal comes up, and then when you hit the pedal again, it just goes to the floor before really doing anything. Usually this causes the opposite effect though... brake fluid will heat up and cause the pads to drag rather than just moving freely up into the reservoir. You should feel a small amount of slack in the pedal before it starts loading up the m/c piston. If not, adjust the booster pushrod until you do. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/8 17:40
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| Dale1990 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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In the event you have to replace the M/C, a decent reman should be fine. So far I've been thru 3 good reman'ed M/Cs and none of them had an issue - bad advice and troubleshooting had me changing things that were not broken (long story).
My current is a reman from O'reilly with a bias spring upgrade. Works perfectly with about 20k on it so far. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 0:38
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| jhammons01 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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^^I've never had issues with remans either.....I've done three on three different cars....put about 20k on each prior to selling them...so anything after that mileage I couldn't say.
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 4:50
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I inspected the master tonight.
I saw no sign of fluid blow-by. The fluid is very dark. I will bleed ASAP. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 5:51
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| dan0617 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Since the fluid is that dark, you might want to take a turkey baster and suck all the fluid out of the MC, and refill it with new, before starting the bleeding process. That way as soon as you start the bleeding process clean fluid will be pulled in instead of that old shit.
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 14:10
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Exactly! I have done that as a matter of course. Why pump bad fluid through? It also increases chances of harming the master by overworking it.
I am also going to get some different brake fluid. Valvoline has removed their "Synpower" brand... and the replacement isn't as good. The boiling points are lower... |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 14:22
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| dan0617 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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....next thing we will find a thread in the chat section from Bastet44 named "Made Turkey for Sunday Dinner and it Tasted Like Brake Fluid".
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 15:27
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| jhammons01 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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There is no way to visually inspect for blow by. The color of the fluid is no clue....
The MC will continue to grow worse with the heat of the summer months. Remember a couple of quick pumps may help you out.... OH!! I just remembered a trick! Go up to Pasadena again on a warm day, this time wait till about 4 o'clock and then Head west on the 210......If that MC is failing, you'll know in about 30 minutes...remember pump pump pump and hold the brake before you actually need it....you have to me good a anticipating the traffic flows. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 15:29
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| dan0617 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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 are you trying to get him killed or does it just look that way?? Sure hope you are j/k!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 15:42
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| jhammons01 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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ha...no....I'm trying to get him to understand that there is no other logical explanation for inconsistent brake pedal. Blow by in the MC or at the Caliper is the only reason one would have pedal one moment and no pedal the other without seeing a huge puddle of fluid under the car......
Heat has a huge impact on whether you have pedal or not...On a cool day the MC may work fine....allow it to heat up and you'll expose a weak seal pronto. Then the traffic starts flowing again, you get some air flow over that engine compartment and the pedal works again. You may not understand that Pasadena is miles "inland" from where Andy lives....there could 20 degree difference from Torrance to Pasadena. If He is strolling around Torrance under nice cool cloud cover and 68° F temps....things change dramatically when He travels up to Pasadena and experiences 90°+ temps in stop and go traffic. This would explain why a pedal would take someone by surprise and then work fine the next day. Since I drive to CalTech and JPL (both in Pasadena) on a weekly basis, I remember my MC getting weak on that stretch of freeway, yet working fine when I get back to the cool coastline as the temp had dropped 30°F during that time. Of course once this occurred it wasn't 4 weeks later until it became too dangerous to "nurse" any further. So no, I'm not trying to get him killed, however, I'll not suggest new fluid....that would be a way to not really address an issue and further endanger our friend. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 16:40
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| jhammons01 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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I also would like to remind.....
The logical blow by at the MC versus the Caliper Cylinder would be do to the fact that the MC moves...what 4-6 times the amount that the Caliper piston travels?? This is why the Caliper seals last much longer than the Master Cylinder. Also the reason so many have already suggested weak MCs are the culprit. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 16:43
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| CentralCoaster | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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I would also suggest not driving the car, period, until it's fixed.
I've had an intermittent m/c failure. Andy, some other symptoms could be having your brake warning light come on, having it leak where that plastic switch threads into the m/c, or having low fluid in one reservoir and high fluid in the other. But that won't necessarily happen just because one of the seals leaked past. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 17:21
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| dan0617 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Is it possible to get a new seal kit or to take out the piston and take it somewhere and match up new seals to put on it? Would be a 10 minute and few dollar job and could be done before the brake bleeding.
My guess is still air. On these abs cars I've had air in the line that made an intermittent spongy problem. Without abs air in the lines makes a spongy pedal feel all the time but with abs it seems like the air gets in the system somewhere sometimes and is not noticeable. Don't have a clue why but it has happened to me. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 17:30
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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I don't have the luxury of not driving it at all.
Sunday, I will bleed the system. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 1:50
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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In that case I hope at least the brakes on the ambulance work. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 4:27
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| jhammons01 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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lol......damn CC...
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 5:33
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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These work ok... I just am not a fan of panic stops. Since I am not on freeways, and my normal top speed to work is 40, I am not worried. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 6:41
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Matatk | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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That's what the fireman from Brad's post said before he landed on top of that 69 firebird..... Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/6/11 12:59
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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yea, well, I don't have any hills to worry about.
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Posted on: 2009/6/12 4:01
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Matatk | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Somehow I think that a car spinning 180* towards you has a similar outcome, though. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/6/12 11:40
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| j3studio | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Quote:
dan0617 wrote:  |
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Posted on: 2009/6/13 14:05
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| bogus | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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no... that won't happen... I have my own baster for just that purpose. Got my 1.99 out if it, too! I have had that baster for over 5 years!!!
 J3 - great to see you around again!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/6/13 17:29
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| bastet44 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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My turkey roasting technique is so good that I don't need a baster. =) |
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Posted on: 2009/6/13 17:45
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| jhammons01 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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oooohhhhh Feel the burnnnnnn
LOL |
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Posted on: 2009/6/13 17:56
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| CSS996 | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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Mega Guru
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Yeah, but there will be a "Brake Fluid Sorbet" churning here shortly!
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Posted on: 2009/6/14 0:45
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| j3studio | Re: The 110 freeway almost killed me... | ||
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bogus wrote: Andy, things have been crazy busy - I've actually been lurking more than posting for the last few months... |
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Posted on: 2009/6/14 9:31
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