What really need to be replaced on a C4 IOT covert to E85?


I know that a new tune and injectors are a must and probably the fuel pump too.

But is the rest of the stock fuel system compatable?
EI is the gas tank E85 safe, fuel rails, regulator, flex lines, sending unit, etc?


If the entire fuel system has to go, a different platform is probably be a better choice, unless there are decent existing options already out there.


A daily driven 16 to 1 compression stroker seems like a possibility with E85.

Mike

The big stuff will obviously be new injectors properly sized to the engine, a new tune and possibly a new O2 sensor.

You'll have to check every o-ring, seal and gasket that comes in contact with fuel to make sure it will survive. One of the CF members did this some time ago - JoBy maybe? I don't recall if the fuel tank had to be changed but pretty much every bit of "rubber" had to be swapped out. I think it also depends on what year the car was made - later years may have had ethanol compatible bits.

I am unsure of E85 compatibility. I wish I knew for sure.

16:1 compression? damn.

whoa, wait on that rubber changing things...

Ethanol has been in our Gas for years. Back in the late 70s during the original gas crises......people tried to run ethanol and it didn't work out due to certain Rubber compounds being used at the time.

Since then, however and especially since many other Nations use Ethanol.....the Seals have been upgraded to withstand being used with Ethanol.

Changing injectors may be perpetuated by the fact that if you went from Gas to Pure alcohol (ethanol) you'd have to tune it to poor three times the amount of fuel.

Go see who is running an Alcohol dragster and ask them.

As far as your goes, Ethanol has been in my old '84....and every other Corvette in the state of Cali for two decades. The concentration has no bearing on whether or not the seals would be eaten from Ethanol.

Just note...any 2000 or up model car has a CPU that will recognize and adjust for E85 simple due to a cost factor....The Big three nor the Japs were going to make a "US only" CPU that didn't recognize E85...they made ONE CPU with simple programming....since E85 was not used here.....nothing was said. For Further evidence of this trend, look at how many cars have their "info Center" placed in the center of the dash.....this is so the same car can go with right or left hand steering wheel......Domestic or export use.....same car.....

John,

I am not sure I agree with your contention.

Ethanol has been added to fuels for about the last 10 years as an oxygenate. This is for emissions reasons. The stuff added PRIOR was MBTE - Methyl-Butal-Terciary-Ether. A real nasty substance that leached out of gas, out of the underground tanks and into the ground water, causing all sorts of havoc. MBTE did contain Methanol, but it was mixed up with isobutylene or something like that. Either way, the specific density was about 10%; still not enough to do damage.

As it stands, modern fuels are using about 10% ethanol... where as E85 is 85% ethanol!!! That is a HUGE difference.

Also, in nations that used lots of ethanol - think Brazil - they have had a native auto industry for a number of years now. Hense, not so many imports for a market that small, at least imports from the USA. Ford, GM, AMC, Mopar have all had divisions down there. Please note that Ford continued to make the US developed 1966 Galaxy in Brazil until 1983 or so! Interesting, eh?

I am not so sure about the 2000 up thing on E85. I have never heard that. Technically, that means all modern cars are FlexFuel compliant. Why don't they advertize this fact? It seems like a good idea... Regardless, his Vette is NOT a 2000 or newer, so putting E85 in it could result in all sorts of issues.

Read This:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines

Quote:

I read that article well before starting this thread.

Like most wiki's it has some problems.

The thing I'm most worried about is the fuel tank (does it have a liner?)

Mike

I don't want to be mean, but Jhammons01 should research E85 a touch more before telling everyone they can run it any car newer than 2000.

Almost everything you said in regards to E85 is wrong. From rubber compatibility to quantity of fuel to computer recognition. None of that is correct.

^^Oh I can chat it up with out getting upset. If you have a difference of opinion then by all means bring your point of view and we'll all learn something.

I'll take your assertions one at a time...give me a minute

Brazil learned a lesson from these ups and downs. The result were flex-fuel vehicles (FFV) that could run on any fuel from pure gasoline to pure alcohol. All Brazilian gasoline is blended with at least 20- to 25-percent ethanol. Some 29,000 out of 31,000 fueling stations in Brazil also offer 100 percent ethanol for the older alcohol-only vehicles. Brazil currently has between 3-million and 4-million ethanol fueled vehicles. Interestingly, there are about 6 million flex-fuel vehicles in the U.S., but only 600 stations where they can refuel with E85.
http://newcarbuyingguide.com/index.php/news/main/4937/event=view

E85 Compatible Vehicles

by Vincent Ciulla
for About.com
Filed In:

1. Engine Fuel



Data obtained from National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition
2006

* 4.7 liter Dodge Durango*
* 4.7 liter Dodge Ram Pickup 1500 Series*
* 2.7 liter Dodge Stratus Sedan*
* 2.7 liter Chrysler Sebring Sedan*
* 3.3 liter Caravan & Grand Caravan SE*
* 3.0 liter Ford Taurus sedan and wagon (2-valve)*
* 4.6 liter Ford Crown Victoria (2-valve, excluding taxi and police units)
* 5.4 liter Ford F-150 (3-valve. Available in December 2005)
* 4.6 liter Lincoln Town Car (2-valve)
* 3.5 liter Chevy Impala (LS, 1LT & 2LT)
* 3.5 liter Chevy Monte Carlo (LS and LT models only)
* 5.3 liter Vortec engine Avalanche
* 5.3 liter Vortec engine Police Package Tahoe*
* 5.3 liter V-8 engine Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups 2WD & 4WD
* 5.3 liter Vortec engine Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon and Yukon XLS
* 4.0 liter Mountaineers
* 3.0 liter Sables
* 5.6 liter DOHC V8 engine

2005

* 4.7 liter Dodge Ram Pickup 1500 Series
* 2.7 liter Dodge Stratus Sedan
* 2.7 liter Chrysler Sebring Sedan
* 4.0 liter Explorer Sport Trac
* 4.0 liter Explorer (4-door)
* 3.0 liter Taurus sedan and wagon (2-valve)
* 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Avalanche
* 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Police Package Tahoe*
* 2.6 liter C240 luxury series
* 3.2 liter Mercedes-Benz C320 sport series
* 4.0 liter Mountaineers
* 3.0 liter Sables
* 5.6 liter DOHC V8 engine

2004

* Dodge 2.7 liter Stratus sedan
* Chrysler 2.7 liter Sebring sedan
* Ford 4.0 liter Explorer Sport Trac *
* Ford 4.0 liter Explorer (4-door) *
* Ford 3.0 liter Taurus sedan & wagon (2-valve) *
* Chevrolet 5.3 liter Silverado ½ pickup *
* GMC 5.3 liter Sierra ½ pickup *
* Chevrolet 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Suburban & Tahoe
* GMC 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Yukon & Yukon XL
* Mercedez-Benz 3.2 liter C320
* Mercury 4.0 liter Mountaineer *
* Mercury 3.0 liter Sable *

2003

* Dodge 2.7 liter Stratus sedan
* Chrysler 2.7 liter Sebring sedan &convertible
* Dodge 3.3 liter Cargo minivan
* Chrysler 3.3 liter Voyager minivan
* Dodge 3.3 liter Caravan minivan
* Ford 4.0 liter Explorer (4-door) *
* Ford 3.0 liter Taurus LX, SE & SES sedan *
* Ford 3.0 liter Supercab Ranger pickup 2WD *
* Chevrolet 5.3 liter Silverado ½ pickup *
* GMC 5.3 liter Sierra ½ pickup *
* Chevrolet 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Suburban & Tahoe
* GMC 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Yukon & Yukon XL
* Mercedez-Benz 3.2 liter C320 sport sedan
* Mercury 4.0 liter Mountaineer *
* Mercury 3.0 liter Sable *

2002

* Chrysler 3.3 liter Voyager minivan
* Dodge 3.3 liter Caravan minivan
* Ford 4.0 liter Explorer (4-door) *
* Ford 3.0 liter Supercab Ranger pickup 2WD *
* Chevrolet 5.3 liter Silverado ½ pickup *
* GMC 5.3 liter Sierra ½ pickup *
* Chevrolet 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Suburban & Tahoe
* GMC 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Yukon & Yukon XL
* Chevrolet 2.2 liter S-10 pickup 2WD
* GMC 2.2 liter Sonoma pickup 2WD
* Mazda 3.0 liter B3000 pickup *
* Mercury 4.0 liter Mountaineer *
* Mercury 3.0 liter Sable *

2001

* Chrysler 3.3 liter Voyager minivan
* Dodge 3.3 liter Caravan minivan
* Ford 3.0 liter Taurus LX, SE & SES sedan *
* Ford 3.0 liter Supercab Ranger pickup 2WD *
* Chevrolet 2.2 liter S-10 pickup 2WD
* GMC 2.2 liter Sonoma pickup 2WD
* Mazda 3.0 liter B3000 pickup *
* Mercury 3.0 liter Mercury Sable *
* Isuzu 2.2 liter Hombre pickup 2WD

2000

* Chrysler 3.3 liter Voyager minivan
* Dodge 3.3 liter Dodge Caravan minivan
* Ford 3.0 liter Taurus LX, SE & SES sedan *
* Chevrolet 2.2 liter S-10 pickup 2WD
* GMC 2.2 liter Sonoma pickup 2WD
* Isuzu 2.2 liter Hombre pickup 2WD

1999

* Dodge 3.3 liter Caravan minivan
* Plymouth 3.3 liter Voyager minivan
* Chrysler 3.3 liter Town & Country minivan
* Ford 3.0 liter Taurus LX, SE & SES sedan *
* Ford 3.0 liter Ranger pickup 4WD & 2WD *
* Ford 3.0 liter Taurus LX, SE & SES sedan *
* Mazda 3.0 liter B3000 pickup *

1998

* Dodge 3.3 liter Caravan minivan
* Plymouth 3.3 liter Voyager minivan
* Chrysler 3.3 liter Town & Country minivan
* Many 1995-1998 Ford Taurus 3.0 liter sedans are also FFVs *
* Dodge 4.7 liter Ram pickup 1500 series
* Dodge 2.7 liter Stratus sedan
* Chrysler 2.7 liter Sebring sedan
* Dodge 3.3 liter Caravan & Grand Caravan SE**
* Ford 4.0 liter Explorer Sport Trac *
* Ford 4.0 liter Explorer (4-door) *
* Ford 3.0 liter Taurus sedan & wagon (2-valve) *
* Chevrolet 5.3 liter Silverado ½ pickup *
* GMC 5.3 liter Sierra ½ pickup *
* Chevrolet 5.3 liter Vortec-engine
* Avalance, Suburban & Tahoe
* GMC 5.3 liter Vortec-engine Yukon & Yukon XL
* Mercedez-Benz 3.2 liter C320 luxury & sport sedan & sport coupe
* Mercedez-Benz 2.6 liter C240 luxury sedan & wagon
* Mercury 4.0 liter Mountaineer *
* Mercury 3.0 liter Sable *

Corrosion

E85 can cause damage, since prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol may corrode metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1985) designed primarily for gasoline. The hydroxyl group on the ethanol molecule is an extremely weak acid, but it can enhance corrosion for some natural materials. For post-1985 fuel-injected engines, all the components are already designed to accommodate E10 (10% ethanol) blends through the elimination of exposed magnesium and aluminum metals and natural rubber and cork gasketed parts. Hence, there is a greater degree of flexibility in just how much more ethanol may be added without causing ethanol-induced damage, varying by automobile manufacturer. Anhydrous ethanol in the absence of direct exposure to alkali metals and bases is non-corrosive; it is only when water is mixed with the ethanol that the mixture becomes corrosive to some metals. Hence, there is no appreciable difference in the corrosive properties between E10 and a 50:50 blend of E10 gasoline and E85 (47.5% ethanol), provided there is no water present, and the engine was designed to accommodate E10. Nonetheless, operation with more than 10% ethanol has never been recommended by car manufacturers in non-FFVs. Operation on up to 20% ethanol is generally considered safe for all post-1988 cars and trucks.

I work for GM in one of their truck plants. The E85 vehicles do use the same ECM, but the programming is different. The E85 vehicles have a fuel tank sensor that tests the density of the fuel and can switch the programming to use E85. The E85 trucks also get a diffenent engine code, not sure of the changes. As far as I know the rest of the fuel system is the same as the regular gas jobs.

http://flexfuelus.com/E85-FAQ

Will I hurt a gasoline-only vehicle if I use E85?
No, as long as you have an EPA certified flex fuel conversions system installed. All vehicles produced after 1995 are required by law to be ethanol resistant. Some car dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for cleaning out one tank of accidental E85 use. One tank full may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine or the emission components.

If I have a gasoline vehicle and convert it to alcohol, am I going to damage the engine?
No, there have been no reports of engine damage due to conversion with proper technology. In fact, The Flex Box Smart Kit is the only system that uses an alcohol sensor and a microprocessor. Beware of conversion systems that do not use an alcohol sensor. Burning alcohol instead of gasoline has been shown to decrease engine oil contamination and extend engine life. Alcohol burns cooler than gasoline providing additional benefits in terms of engine life and performance. In the early 1980's all auto manufacturers started using parts that were not harmed by ethanol. Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Will E85 corrode my fuel system?
No, for corrosion to develop high levels of moisture are required. E85 is produced from dry-milled ethanol, which contains less than 0.5% moisture, which is required by law based on ASTM E85 fuel standard. Corrosion requires minimum moisture levels of at least 4% or greater. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Because most states have gone to E10 or gasohol, we no longer experience moisture buildup in fuel delivery systems.

http://iam.delphi.com/en-us/news/pres ... ases/AAPEX08_flexfuel.htm

All of Delphi’s Multec® 2.0, 3.0 and 3.5 fuel injectors are E85 compatible. Similar to Delphi’s corrosion-resistant flex fuel modules, Delphi’s flex fuel injectors feature unique O-ring materials that are engineered to withstand the corrosive properties of ethanol-based fuels. To protect sensitive surfaces on the injector, Delphi offers a special coating that provides superior resistance to ethanol corrosion when compared to uncoated injectors. Delphi’s fuel injectors have a large linear flow range designed to handle the increased fueling requirements of a flex fuel system. Delphi’s E85-compatible injectors can be found on 21.5 million U.S. vehicles.

Additionally, Delphi’s planar oxygen sensors are validated for lifetime operation with all fuel types and additives, including lifetime operation with E85 and E100. Built with a patented protective sensor coating, Delphi’s oxygen sensors lead the industry in contamination resistance to silicone, phosphorous and other fuel/oil additives. With coverage for late model applications for GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Volkswagen, Delphi’s planar sensors can help provide flexibility for a range of flex-fuel vehicles.

For years, Delphi has incorporated premium materials into their fuel system designs and validated that the pumps can withstand alternative fuels found anywhere in the world. As alternative fuels continue to gain popularity, Delphi continues to provide compatible components with Delphi quality.

Quote:

I don't have the time to read all the threads and linked articles on here now, but when I researched this what I found is that the fuel lines and filter need replaced, the injectors need upsized, the tune needs changed (which is not hard), the fuel pump needs changed (not sure a stock pump could keep up with the volume of E85 needed for a stroker anyway), and the sending unit is in question. The tank is fine and can stay. This was information I gathered for my '89 vette and I can't guarantee it pertains to your year. Only reason I didn't convert was because there is only 1 E85 station local to me and it is over 20 miles away in a direction I don't normally travel.

Quote:

This is where one has to be careful. Ethanol is produced "dry", but during piping, storage, pumping, and even in your tank it can draw moisture at a much greater rate than gasoline. The higher the ethanol content, the greater the moisture gathering potential. That moisture then kick starts the corrosion process. Extra care must be taken, especially if running parts not designed for ethanol use.

Wow, I believed that someone on this board would be working on(or completed) E85 conversion for their C4. Guess not!

Thanks guys



Mike

Lc1vette on the other forum has converted 96 to E85. He recently made 940 RWHP on it, lol.

Jhammons has posted a ton information sort of supporting just pouring E85 into our cars. While none of what I saw was C4 specific, he has certainly spent some time searching out links.

However, at the end of the day E85 will corrode a rubber fuel line that isn't Teflon coated. I've seen it take out a Walbro 255 as well. Those 2 things alone would scare me away from pouring it into a stock C4.

A customer of mine filled up his 2004 Ford Ranger with it. In just one tank full it destroyed the pump and the lines. The resulting shrapnel destroyed the injectors. Regardless of whether or not it was supposed to work, regardless of all the Internet topics, regardless of the 25 links posted in this thread; in the really real world, E85 can and will ruin components designed for gasoline.

You guys can do what you want, but in my experience to run E85 an E85 compatible pump and Teflon coated fuel lines would be necessary. If someone has successfully done otherwise, I'd love to hear about it.

^^True true....

I'm not sure about Teflon coated things....I "Assume" the durometer compound is different and no coating takes place.

You cannot just pour E85 into the older cars without first taking into consideration that the old CPU has no ability to compensate......I thought that was clear. Maybe I needed to state that a bit more.

My main focus was to point out that there are a lot of "rumors" about Ethanol floating around. I'd like to point out how ahead of the curve the Automobile industry was.......not because they were visionaries by any means...they just wanted to sell cars in other countries that were already ethanol friendly, we are the beneficiary of open market forces.

That being said, I'd still like to point you in the direction of folks running pure alcohol....how do they do it?

Quote:

A lot more bracketracers are running alcohol these days, apparently a motor on alchohol is not as influenced by the DA with them.... smaller factor. The following is what I have been told on running alcohol.... if its wrong, I am not going to argue about it, simply because I have never run it, so I can't argue it one way or the other.

- Engines run much cooler on alcohol.... hard to over heat them.

- Typically alcohol is cheaper.... but, I have also heard it takes more alcohol than gasoline to do the same job, so I do not know the final outcome on that.

- Torque increase.... apparently you'll find another tenth or two running alcohol vs gasoline.

- You run about 4 degrees less timing with alcohol vs gasoline

But,

- Alcohol can be very corrosive - It is mandatory that all your fittings and fuel system parts are of good condition and all parts are anodized or coated to protect against corrosion.

- Fuel Supply - This is the most misunderstood area and creates most of the problems with an alcohol engine. It is an absolute must that the fuel system be adequate to supply enough fuel for this much horsepower. An alcohol engine will burn approx. 1 lb. of fuel per horsepower. As soon as you approach 700 plus horsepower, most electric fuel pump systems are just not adequate and not very reliable. thus a belt driven mechanical fuel pump mounted below the fuel level in the tank is recommended. Fuel lines typically need to increase in diameter as well.

On E85.... I'd like to run it, I know a recent build with a 414 - 234/246 hyd cam, AFR 210's and Carb set-up hit 600 HP on the stuff..... thats pretty stout, and I'm thinking E85 might have helped it achieve those numbers.

But, the links above have done nothing more than give me a headache. Is there any cliffnote versions on what it would take a "C4 Corvette" to run the stuff ? Or yet, an early C4, 1985.

I have checked and there are enough E85 stations here in Houston to make it a viable option.

Here is the set-up on E85..... 600 HP and 560 ftlbs out of that motor is impressive.

414 sbc, based upon a 4.125 bore x 3.875 stroke. This is a 11.3-1 cr motor, also using the AFR 210 eliminator cylinder heads, victor jr intake, and a hyd roller 234/246 @ .050" with .565 lift. This motor is going in a C3 Corvette with a tremac T60.
(Notice the A/F and volumetric efficiency using the E85)

[IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/414dyno-1-1.jpg[/IMG]

Pure alcohol in a street car, or production car? I've never heard of that. I'm not saying it's not out there, just that I've never heard of it before.

You would need about twice the fuel. Most of the cars that I'm aware of that run on alcohol start out with carburetor jets that are twice the size of comparable gasoline jets. The carburetor's are also set up differently as far as venturi size and what not. I don't know much about it.

^^Three times......Three times is the number.

The model T was designed to run on nothing other than Ethanol...

I don't recall that about the Model T, but I don't know anything about those cars.

Other than a model T, is there a production car that runs on strictly alcohol?

Here's an interesting tid bit that detracts from your claims about the model T and it's intended fuel:

[quote=Wikipedia]The engine was capable of running on gasoline, kerosene or ethanol, though the decreasing cost of gasoline and the later introduction of Prohibition in the United States made ethanol an impractical fuel.[/quote]

I still don't really see what fuel the Model T used has to do with our specific application, the C4 Corvette.

It's obvious you don't like the idea.....just let it go.

Just go out to your local dragstrip and see who is running Alcohol and what they had to do to get it to run.

The Carburetor guys have to put jets in three times the size of the gas jets.....

Actually, I do like the idea. I'm building a stand alone fuel system for a direct port nitrous set up that will be E85. Lc1vette from the other forum is a friend of mine. He recently made over 900 RWHP on E85. However, I digress...

Like I said, most of the alcohol cars that I've seen start out with double the fuel jets of a comparable gasoline set up. I've never asked them about fuel pumps/lines though.

What did Lc1vette have to do??

And actually if what you say is true, this is a good thing. I thought you were being a Huckleberry and just yankin' my chain.

If you are really interested, I've been trying to figure out a way to grow switch Grass and using solar heat, distill my own Ethanol....

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html

This document tells you tons of info

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_l ... nol_manual/manual1-2.html

This guy told me via email that they have a kit even for a CrossFire. However, I didn't get the warm fuzzies from his answer.....not sure why...I just didn't think he any practical experience with my type of intake.

http://www.fullflexint.com/

I particularly like this one....this is about building a Solar Still for distillery of the switch grass mash. The way this works is you.....go look first and I'll rap it up

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_l ... anol_manual/manual15.html

The way this works is, you can cut Switch grass three times in a year. Then you can create the mash and let it ferment. Then you distill it and run pure alcohol/Ethanol in your car.

I use 1100 gallons of gas per year in my job....two acres is what I need to produce that much fuel.

You cut switch grass with a regular tractor like hay......then you process it. Two weeks later your solar still is filling up a barrel with pure Ethanol that you take home. You fill your cars tank before you leave....simple process.

I'm not talking about E85.....I want to cut the Government and the Gas companies completely out of the loop.

Two weeks ago, I tried to buy 3 acres but the seller had accepted another offer when I walked into the Realtor's office.

My next plan is to try to talk to Edison (Electric company) about using some land underneath the power lines here in Irvine. I'm just not sure they'll allow me to be making moonshine out in the open like that.

Lc1vette (let's call him Chris from here on out) is using a fuel lab fuel pump, braided steel fuel lines with a teflon core, and 160 lb injectors.

When Chris switched from gas to E85 he started by just adding 30% to the fuel table. That was pretty close, close enough to drive the car around. I'm not sure what he ended up doing to fine tune the fueling, but it wasn't too far off from the initial 30% addition of fuel.

^^I wonder, did He switch those components (not the injectors) because He was told to do so or did they actually fail first due to the Ethanol.....