Woodstock wrote:
Well, backfire sounds like you mixed up a couple of wires.
Firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 clockwise.
#1 should be next clockwise to the square block

joeld wrote:
Did you remove all of the old plug wires at the same time, or replace one at a time? It is EXTREMELY easy to cross plug wires. Pull the cap off and check the rotor, be sure the tip is still OK. I understand what you're saying about the orientation of the dist cap and #1 plug wire location. This sounds correct. And you did go 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.
Be sure the coil wires inside the cap did "lock" in. I have seen these push up when the harness was plugged in.

Joel

toptechx6 wrote:
I have no idea why you would remove all wires from the cap without marking the old one if you don't even have a book for your car, but at this point I would do this. Keeping in mind the distributor rotation is clockwise, first verify the wires are on the cap in the correct firing order 18436572 and routed to the correct spark plugs

8 7
6 5
4 3
2 1
Ft.

If it wont start, move all wires at the cap one spot in either direction and try again, if it still does not start move each one two spots in the opposite direction and try again, good luck.

Woodstock wrote:
Sorry about that, my bad. The #1 would be the 2nd clockwise to the that block.

bogus wrote:
the firing order of the Gen 1 small block never changed, IIRC.

http://www.classiccarauto.com/impala/how_to/images/distributor.png

Woodstock wrote:
91 and 87 is the same. Since it can't get any worse, try changing the rotor by 180°.

joeld wrote:
Rotor goes on one way, It's indexed to prevent 180 degrees off. Assuming your dist is set in the traditional location, the normal location for #1 plug is the first hole to the left of the "harness" block. #1 is on the left, #2 is on the right.

Joel

Woodstock wrote:
Looking at my spare rotor, it's absolutely no problem to switch it by 180°. But if you are 100% certain it's on correct, than someone might have pulled the distributor and it could be far away from the stock setting.
Mine is 100% stock, #7 is counterclockwise and #2 is clockwise next to the block and should be followed by #1.

If it wont start, move all wires at the cap one spot in either direction and try again, if it still does not start move each one two spots in the opposite direction and try again, good luck.

Calm wrote:
First off.....don't panic. This is not rocket science.

IF the dist. is in the original position, you're only 'off' by one or two positions. Try going ahead with the wires one (as you did) or TWO back. If either of those two things don't work.....

I'd go back to the basics:
1) Dial in your distributor (set crankshaft to #1 firing position....be carefull to confirm both #1 valves are closed, confirming compression stroke)
2) Re-Install dist. setting rotor to correct position.
3) Re-install wires as per rotor position being #1 (18436572 clockwise)

Best of luck.

But DON'T get it towed! Whatever you do! We can help you!

Woodstock wrote:
than I like toptechx6 approach:

Calm wrote:
Don't worry.....we'll help you through this.

First off...did you try the "one forward - two back" thing?

Calm wrote:
In order for you to understand correctly......

The distributor ALWAYS 'distributes' the spark in a very mechanical way. For us mortals to understand, the Chevy fire gods teach us that #1 is the basic reference......then #8 fires...then #4 fires....and so on (18436572)

You're ONLY problem right now is locating #1! All the rest will take care of itself.

joeld wrote:
OK, if all else fails. Yes you can just keep moving #1 around the cap followed by the rest. It can only be 8 different locations. The only thing that will happen be be a "spit" back or possible back-fire. I agree, the other way will be to start at square one and set dist to #1 comp and then set timing. Myself I would just keep trying to move plug wires first. One question, did you replace the coil? And are you sure all wires are hooked uo to dist cap and locked in? And I am sure about the rotor. Look at your old one and you'll see what I mean. Look at the bottom.

Joel

I've tried 4 positions, I'll try the other 4 before I call the tow truck.

Calm wrote:
Ok

Forget everything then and try this:

Spin the engine over till your timing mark (on the crank pully) lines up (close is good enough) with the timing tab.

Open the dist. cap......see where the rotor is pointing. Transition that to the cap.

As of this point, you're either in the range (one ahead, two back - wire position-wise) or you're 180 degrees opposite. (not bad odds)

Try all of that. No start....then simply go to the oposite (180 deg.) side of your dist. for wiring. ((Please remember.....it's 18436572 CLOCKWISE)

Calm wrote:
Quote:

I've tried 4 positions, I'll try the other 4 before I call the tow truck.

Now it's getting personal! :tongue: (I have a personal dislike of tow trucks)

It ran right before your tune up, right?

That MEANS the original wiring was correct.....and your replacement wiring is incorrect. So....start OVER.

Just locate #1 wire (the rest is simple math.)

CentralCoaster wrote:
Do you have a timing light?


It's possible the previous guy put the dist in a tooth off and then put the plug wires on where they shouldn't be in order to get it to run.

The rotor can only go on one way, it's keyed.

With about 6* timing, the boxy thing where the wires hook up the coil, points directly to the drivers side.

The #1 plug is the 2nd plug clockwise from that.


If you turn the motor over until it's exactly at the 0 on the timing mark, the rotor should be pointing almost directly at the #1 or #6 (which is 180 across from #1)

toptechx6 wrote:
I agree with CC that the it sounds like the distributor was not indexed correctly by the person who removed it previously, that is likely the reason installing the wires on the cap "correctly" now results in it actually being out of time.
Ideally the distributor should be removed and reinstalled correctly, however the car did run so it can be made to do so again by simply "dead timing" the engine without distributor removal, for now lets just try to make that happen. Indexing it correctly might be a better lesson for next semester.
You indicate you have a Haynes manual, assuming mine is the same, check page 2A-10 for the procedure to locate TDC for number 1 cylinder (for now ignore steps 4 & 5) if the rotor ends up pointing toward the firewall assume that is TDC on the exhaust stroke as in step 8, make sure you have found TCD on the compression stroke. You will need to clean off the vibration damper and timing plate so you can see and align the mark.
Once you have located TDC for #1 simply install the wires on the cap in the correct firing order starting with #1 at the location closest to where the rotor is pointing.(don't forget to reconnect the BATT wire to the distributor)
If it does NOT start once you do the above, next try holding the pedal to the floor while cranking. This is "clear flood" mode and prevents the injectors from firing, it is possible the many short cranking attempts so far have wet the plugs with fuel, once it does start of course release the pedal to prevent over revving, again good luck.

DaleD wrote:
Quote:

toptechx6 wrote:
I agree with CC that the it sounds like the distributor was not indexed correctly by the person who removed it previously, that is likely the reason installing the wires on the cap "correctly" now results in it actually being out of time.
Ideally the distributor should be removed and reinstalled correctly, however the car did run so it can be made to do so again by simply "dead timing" the engine without distributor removal, for now lets just try to make that happen. Indexing it correctly might be a better lesson for next semester.
You indicate you have a Haynes manual, assuming mine is the same, check page 2A-10 for the procedure to locate TDC for number 1 cylinder (for now ignore steps 4 & 5) if the rotor ends up pointing toward the firewall assume that is TDC on the exhaust stroke as in step 8, make sure you have found TCD on the compression stroke. You will need to clean off the vibration damper and timing plate so you can see and align the mark.
Once you have located TDC for #1 simply install the wires on the cap in the correct firing order starting with #1 at the location closest to where the rotor is pointing.(don't forget to reconnect the BATT wire to the distributor)
If it does NOT start once you do the above, next try holding the pedal to the floor while cranking. This is "clear flood" mode and prevents the injectors from firing, it is possible the many short cranking attempts so far have wet the plugs with fuel, once it does start of course release the pedal to prevent over revving, again good luck.

I have a Haynes manual. Mine has different page numbers, but I found it. Page 64 in mine, go figure.
There was something I didn't quite understand about finding TDC. It said line up the timing mark, take off the cap, and if the rotor isn't pointing to #1, (I guess they assume you know where #1 is located!), then rotate the motor 360. At least that's how I read it.
So, I lined up the mark with the scale. My scale is rusted, so I just got the mark somewhere within the boundry of the scale. Took off the cap, and the rotor was pointing at the connector to the right of the plug block. I took pics of my cap, rotor position and timing mark position in case I got into big trouble. I also noticed, my distributor cap is aligned almost identical to the picture in my Haynes book, so maybe that isn't a problem?
I put the cap back on and put #1 where the rotor was pointed. BINGO! It started. It was enough to make a grown man cry, (not really, but it was very nice).
It's running rich. But it's running. I need to re-route the wiring, and put the looms on, but it was too late to screw with that tonight. I knew only bad would come of that!

I have 3 questions:

First: I'm pretty sure #1 moved during this tune up. Not positive, because I'm a dumbass, but I'm pretty sure it moved. How can that be?

Second: I know the rotor and cap were pretty old, but the plugs and wires I took off were decent. Does it make sense that changing these items would cause the timing shift and have the car running rich?

Third: I bought wire looms that connect to the valve covers with new center bolts. How critical is the torque on those?

And finally, thanks to all. It's a lonely feeling when your car is broken. It's really nice to have a place where folks help you out. I'm not mechanic, but maybe one day I can return a favor.

toptechx6 wrote:
Yeah Baby, I knew you could do it, congratulations on sticking with it way to go!
Regarding your question concerning the process of finding TDC (not knowing where #1 is located)? I told you to ignore that part and only be concerned if the rotor was pointed toward the firewall, with the timing mark on the damper aligned with the indicator you have a 50/50 chance of being on the compression stroke, if the rotor had been pointed at the firewall instead of forward you would have been on the exhaust stroke, understand?
I'm confused by what you mean when you say #1 "moved"? If you are saying it is not in the same spot on the cap, that is possible, if you had marked the old cap you would know!
It is possible that it is still out of time, the only proper way to know is to check it with a timing light, on your car you will need to disable computer advance (ESC)when checking the timing, don't forget to enable it when finished.
As for running rich, make sure you didn't accidentally disconnect a vacuum line during the tune up.
I would snug the center bolts down by hand using a 1/4 drive ratchet, the torque spec is only around 100 inch lbs as I recall, the only critical part is not snapping them off, they are not very strong, a valve cover leak is better than a broken bolt! Again congratulations, nice job.

joeld wrote:
Good job! Didn't doubt you couldn't do it. It just gets a little confusing until you do it a couple of times. That's good advice on checking all the lines just be sure all is connected.

Joel

CentralCoaster wrote:
To fill in the blanks here... plugs/wires will NOT affect your timing.

The only thing that affects timing is the distributor position, which is adjusted by loosening the clamp on the intake and rotating the distributor...

...or relocating the plug connections will affect timing.

Timing tab looks like this:


The deep notch is 0 degrees
The peak to the left is 4 degrees BTDC (advanced)
The next 2 peaks after that are 8 and 12 degrees.

To the right is 4 and 8 ATDC (retarded).

BTDC = before top dead center
ATDC = after top dead center


There are usually less marks on the ATDC side, because nobody in their right mind sets base timing over there.