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| Danspeed1 | Need some advice... | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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We were out in Jersey yesterday and were accelerating off an on ramp. My girlfriend was driving my 1995 Monte Carlo Z34 3.4L DOHC V6, so she wasn't hammering on it,... I'd figure 40% throttle. The car revved up all of a sudden and then just shut down. I couldn't get it started but I had an idea of where this was headed. No metallic sounds before the engine shut down, no smoke, no big bang. I had to call a Tow Truck which I never thought I'd have to do with this car. Got the car home and took a look at it this morning in the rain. This is what I found.
[IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34002.jpg[/IMG] The timing belt is shredded, and when I attempt to turn the engine over the belt doesn't move, but there is still tension on the cams which leads me to believe it broke down by the crank. This is bad because normally the cams would all close and the valves would be saved, but in this case, the valves are all still open so this would leave room for the valves to collide with the pistons. Supposedly this is a Non-interference engine. But at TDC with the valves at full extension, there is only .010 clearance between both. I was reading online about other people who have had bent valves after a timing belt break. [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34003.jpg[/IMG] Then there's a second issue that's got me even more concerned. I pulled all the spark plug wires and they were all normal except one. The rear bank, on the left hand side.... I pulled out and the plug wire itself was COATED in oil, it was dripping off. When I went to pull the plug, and i slid my socket down into the hole it slouched around in there before locking onto the spark plug. I can't figure out what would cause this. I am wondering if this is a pre-existing problem I never noticed or a result of the belt breaking (damage). I would like to do a compression test. How else can I check this motor over to make sure there is no valve or piston damage before pouring $500 worth of work into it? I need some creative ideas. Dan |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 17:54
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Car has 204K miles on it and I'd like to get another 100K out of it!
DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 17:54
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| Durango_Boy | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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You can use a leak down kit to pressureize each cylinder with the valve closed to see if it's leaking, either around the piston rings or valves or gasket. Remove the valve cover and the rockers so you can manually lift the valves to closed position. Once you pressureize the cylinder it 'should' keep the valve closed and tight. If it won't close all the way or you hear air hissing you may have a bent valve. If you have a bad gasket you can hear air in the radiator. If you're losing pressure but don't hear hissing then you might have loose or bad rings.
If you have bent valves then the only way to fix it is to pull the head. This will also give youy access to the pistons. The leak down test will indicate if the rings are sealing. You'll also need to remove the timing cover to replace the belts and check the cams for damage as well. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 18:21
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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If its a bent valve the engine is done in my opinion. I will be looking at an L67 at that point, but I would like to keep this motor if possible.
I think the leak may be from the valve cover gasket rather than the head gasket. The pistons are deep on this engine. The oil puddled up in these deep holes, suggesting that it came from up top (valve cover). I pulled that particular spark plug and turned the engine over. I felt pressure when I put my finger in and over the hole, and minimal oil was spraying out. DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 18:35
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| bogus | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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The oil is from the cam cover seal. I would swap the belt and see what is what.
When was the belt changed?? |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 18:59
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Quote:
The belt was changed about 30K miles ago. It "was" a Goodyear belt from Partsamerica.com. Cam cover seal... valve cover seal, whatever,LOL. I hope your right Andy. Thankfully you usually are, so that gives me hope! Anybody know where I can get a quality belt this time??? DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 19:43
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Goodyear isn't quality? Sounds like a fluke failure.
You'll need a timing belt anyways to do your compression check, so go for it. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 20:07
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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So Central, your bid is another Goodyear, or do you suggest something else?
I think I can do a compression test without the belt. When the cam flats are up, I think all the valves are closed (I think). DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 20:14
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| bogus | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Delco? Gates? I wonder if something cut it.
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Posted on: 2009/6/5 22:26
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Day 1
So I got up early this morning (before noon) and tore up the motor. I took pictures of the steps somewhat for my own reference but also in the hopes somebody will be able to give me so good advice or will make it easier to understand what I am talking about. Going to try and post this on some V6 sites too! So here goes.... [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34007-2.jpg[/IMG] Got the front timing chain cover off (I think I may have posted this picture already); as you can see the belt is all torn to hell, but still putting tension on the cams, holding them in place. [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34008.jpg[/IMG] I took a look down the spark plug hole to see if they were all filled with oil. The other holes had a few drops but were not saturated like the rear left one. [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34011.jpg[/IMG] I knew I was going to have to pull the power steering pump to make room for my hands to "properly" get into the timing belt area. So to avoid a mess I decided to pump the power steering fluid out of the reservoir ahead of time so it didn't spill everywhere. [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34012.jpg[/IMG] God I am glad I did, this still was toasty... smelled horrible and burnt to a crisp! [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34013.jpg[/IMG] Next I decided to get the overflow out of the way to make more space... and also the stabilizer [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34014.jpg[/IMG] I removed the front cover, which is cracked like crazy and will either need to be replaced or repaired (more glue). Can anybody see where the Major Failure occurred yet???? [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34016.jpg[/IMG] How about now (notice the bottom pulley) [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34017.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34018.jpg[/IMG] More carnage for your viewing pleasure.... [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34019.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34020.jpg[/IMG] I decided not to even waste time with the belt, so I cut it off with a knife... Take a long hard look, I couldn't believe my eyes... I've never seen teeth sheared off of a belt like this before. (this is a Quality Goodyear belt might I add) [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34021.jpg[/IMG] So I had this great Idea that didn't work... THIS IS THE PART I AM HOPING SOMEBODY CAN INTERJECT SOME HELPFUL IDEAS.... I decided to pull the cam covers off and go cylinder, by cylinder pressure checking each one separately. To do this I would screw in the fitting to the spark plug area, and manually turn the cams so that the lobes were facing me, and not putting any tension on the valves. In theory I figured I would be able to pressurize the cylinders by turning the car over for about 5-10seconds, and if they didn't leak down I would know the valves are ok. The first cylinder worked like a charm and I got somewhere between 90-100 as a reading. [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34023.jpg[/IMG] The second cylinder also read about 95... (looking good !!! Thumbs up!!!) [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34024.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34025.jpg[/IMG] The third cylinder didn't work out so well. I believe the pressure only made it to about 65, BUT THE CYLINDERS DID NOT LEAK DOWN WHICH IS A GOOD SIGN. Not sure why though it wouldn't pressurize the same as the first two. [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34029.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34030.jpg[/IMG] To test the rear bank I would have to pull the intake manifold. To start the Air intake needed to come off.... [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34031.jpg[/IMG] All those sensors (EGR) and wires needed to be removed... I am not going to lie and tell you I know what everything in that mess did. If somebody would like to clarify what all those wires, sensors, and modules do that would be nice to know. What I do know (and this is the most important part) is that they all need to be hooked back up! [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34032.jpg[/IMG] Why so much oil in the intake?????? Not making me feel great, but hey, shes got 204K on her! (yea I know, I'm drinking light beer... trying to stay on my diet,... sheesh!) [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34033.jpg[/IMG] Alright everything is disconnected, so its intake time (this is the big one!) [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34033.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34035.jpg[/IMG] Shes off! [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34037.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34038.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34039.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34040.jpg[/IMG] Can anybody tell me what would cause the massive oil leak on the left rear cylinder.... [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/MonteCarloZ34042.jpg[/IMG] I was completely missing an O-ring if you look. I really hope that didn't fall into the engine 30K miles ago. I will have to dig around and see if I can find it. Don't need any blockages causing oils starvation. Ok now I am done for today, or at least this is all that i am doing. But here is the problem I ran into, hopefully somebody can help me. This caused panic for the first 20 minutes I was compression testing the rear bank. I didn't take a picture, but I hooked up the compression tester to the left rear bank, and I turned the lobes on the cam up towards me so the valves were in the fully closed position. I turned the car over for a good 10-15 seconds and it didn't build any pressure on the gauge. At first i was in a panic thinking that the valves were bent, and the motor was done. SO I decided to try the first bank (left) plug I had done earlier this morning, the one that read 90-100; after doing the same, what was once a 90-100 reading was now no reading at all. SO I tired the front bank, middle plug. And that one didn't have a reading either!!!! So I am thinking that either 1. The gauge from autozone crapped out, or 2. my method of checking for bent valves is flawed. PLEASE ADVISE!!! Thanks for the help guys, Dan |
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Posted on: 2009/6/6 21:15
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| pianoguy | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Man, I don't have much to offer except moral support - good luck!!
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Posted on: 2009/6/6 21:26
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| bogus | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Quote:
autozone gauges SUCK. I have had their fuel pressure gauges and they are. The only way you would have no compression at all is if all rings are gone. Even with a bent valve, it would show some compression. If nothing else, test the gauge on an easily reached plug on another car. No harm in that, eh? you found what I was alluding too. One of the orings on the valve cover. I would be shocked if it would affect oil return if it fell into the engine. I would expect it to get mulched and fall into the pan... check the pan for debris. If this was my project, I would consider removing the engine from the car and putting it on a stand. You really need to replace all the seals. I would not be all that quick to blame the belt. It looks like something rubbed it into submission. I would inspect the entire belt route... all you need is one jagged edge... |
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Posted on: 2009/6/7 1:08
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Jeffvette | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Are you sure 90 psi is good?
If you lost a belt, you lost valves. Doesn't matter how good or bad the belt was, anytime it stops turning, the teeth/cog portion will get torn off. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/7 1:22
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Quote:
Non-interference engine. The clearances are very tight, but I am keeping my fingers crossed. The spark plugs are all intact. DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/7 1:57
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| Matatk | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Would it be cheaper and faster to just get a junkyard motor and drop it in?
Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/6/7 2:04
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Its hard to find a 3.4L DOHC and the L67's are expensive. This is a $300 job IF the valves aren't bent.
DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/7 2:06
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| bogus | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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and if the valves are bent, it's rebuild time.
Engines wear at specific rates. Rebuild the heads and your rings will now show their age. Especially on aluminum engines. I still think the cheap ass gauge is the problem. And Jeff does ask a good question, is 90PSI good? Or, is the gauge failing in advance of reaching peak. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/7 3:22
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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I don't know if 90 is good, but it was a consistent reading at the time, and the gauge was not falling so... I will have to look into this further, maybe try another gauge.
DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/7 3:56
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| bogus | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Do you have the Helm Manual for the car? It will give you all those specs.
I still feel the belt was eaten up, vs just breaking. I have to reiterate you must inspect the belt routing and look for anything that could eat it up. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/7 15:49
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Good Call Bogus,
[IMG] http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/get ... kauto.com/Dayco/84068.jpg [/img] Number 85474 is totally shot. Its not seized but it's looser than Jenna. Oh well, throw another $120 at it! DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 18:38
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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I don't understand your method. If you've got no timing belt, both valves shut 100% of the time, where is your engine getting air to compress in the first place? It's only going to squeeze whatever happened to be in the cylinder before you hooked up your guage.
That would leave your pressure readings completely dependent on where the piston was before you started the test. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 18:54
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| Livin_the_dream | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Quote:
 once you get the belt back on and valve timing set you stand a better chance of getting a good reading.My .02 on your belt. We use gates timing belts in our equipment to run various items and I have seen teeth shread off a belt like that. Usually from 1 of 2 reasons- 1 something seized or stopped hard. 2 oil, gunk whatever seems to have the effect of delaminating the teeth from the outside of the belt over time. good luck |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 19:53
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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You can't measure it correctly w/o a belt
Get a belt on it and see if you can crank it over by hand. Lay off the starter for now. You don't want to drive any loose parts into the head. Is this an 'interference' engine, where the valves will hit the pistons if you loose a belt? |
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Posted on: 2009/6/9 20:12
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Quote:
True, and I am not going to lie and tell you I thought about that because I didn't. But my thinking was that the air in the cylinders would compress showing a reading on the gauge, and if the cylinders bled off or didn't build at all I would know something was wrong. In any event, there is no point in waiting to install the new belt just to do a compression test. At the point where i buy the pulleys and tensioners I am already a couple hundred in the whole. I already have most the parts, just waiting on a couple of gaskets. Might as well throw it back together and see if she runs. My goal is to just get a few more thousand miles out of this engine, and then look into "something else." DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/10 1:30
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Quote:
Supposedly this is a "non-interference" engine, but the clearances are ridiculously tight. As I mentioned in my previous post, I will already be in the hole for $$$ spent on parts, so I might as well turn it over and give it a try. I don't see this whole setup in here much longer, my transmission is on its last leg, and I am not interested in installing yet another 4T60E (junk). DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/10 1:33
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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Oh, I filled the cylinders with air thought the spark plug hole. Obviously there was a slight air escaping sound coming out of all the exhaust and intake, but no massive leaks.
DG |
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Posted on: 2009/6/10 1:35
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| Danspeed1 | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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The Monte Carlo Lives...
Andy is the winner, guessing that one of the pulleys failed. The timing belt tensioner seized Causing the belt to shred. I bought a new pulley set, a timing belt, and a few gaskets and I am back on the road with 204K miles.... I see an L67 in my future though... I am really getting tired of dealing with this 3.4L DOHC. Dan |
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Posted on: 2009/6/19 3:04
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| bogus | Re: Need some advice... | ||
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I am glad it's up and running!!!! yaya!!!!
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Posted on: 2009/6/19 3:10
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