Why do people keep posting crashes? [Forums - Road Racing and Autocrossing]

Road Racing and Autocrossing > Why do people keep posting crashes?
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SpectatorRacing	Why do people keep posting crashes?	#1
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	This is starting to annoy me. We all know racing has its dangers, but why do we need to have it all over this forum? If there's something to be learned, sure, let's talk about how it can be avoided. But I like to think of the guru folks as a bit more than the NASCAR "I like to see the crashes" crowd. How many "this guy was an idiot with lots of money" posts do we need? I see crashes every weekend, but 99.99% of the time the driver walks away due to proper safety equipment. What is to be gained by seeing people's carnage? People get hurt, but if you've never heard of the guy does a "is he ok" post really mean anything? Let's talk about racing here - ALMS, Koni, F1, hell, even NASCAR. And those of us who turn laps on a track hopefully have stories to tell as well. But I don't need to see any more crash photos. I've seen them already in real life.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 4:26
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Jeffvette	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#2
Elite Guru Not on CF 1297 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Just like everything else in life, the dimwits need entertainment. Hence the reason Nascar is so popular. I do think of it in other ways. It does help keep some people off the track that have no business being there. Either financially or mentally.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 4:41

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bogus	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#3
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah San Pedro, CA 20859 Posts Member since: 2005/9/7 0:00	I agree. I watch racing for the competition, the skill, the engineering. I don't watch it for the wrecks. Those that do would have loved Roman chariot racing...
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 5:37
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#4
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Quote: bogus wrote: Those that do would have loved Roman chariot racing... I am adding the blades to my wheels...that's a great idea, Andy!
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 13:17
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#5
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: Jeffvette wrote: Just like everything else in life, the dimwits need entertainment. Hence the reason Nascar is so popular. Same people think professional wrestling is real. There are very few watchers who understand racing. The wreck posters think it's a big deal. The racers think "so what?", wrecks happen in racing. The racers in the wrecks thing, "So What?", time to head to the shop and put the car back together. People think "Oh my God, Oh my God, did you see that Miata fly over the fence" Drivers think "Well, that was interesting. Wonder if I cleared the fence without touching it?"
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 13:30
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BrianCunningham	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#6
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	I post crashes so people can review what happened and hopefully avoid the same.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 17:09
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CentralCoaster	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#7
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	I watch for the crashes. Crashes and near crashes are great as long as the drivers don't get hurt or killed. Now, if they had better TV coverage than watching the race leader run laps with no one else in sight, I might watch for the racing. Hint,hint... more in car cameras, lower budget teams, close racing, whether it's for 19th position or 2 laps down.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 17:59
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Matatk	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#8
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22803 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	Quote: BrianCunningham wrote: I post crashes so people can review what happened and hopefully avoid the same. I agree. Maybe it will keep some of the weekend warriors off the track so they don't get hurt. "Oh Honey, did you see that crash....maybe I won't take my new corvette to the track after all" Matthew
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 18:24
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#9
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Why would we want to keep people from taking their cars to the track? I thought we were trying to encourage it. I'm all for people with 500 hp weapons learning how to drive them safely in a controlled environment. This forum gives the impression that if you go to a driving school you will smash up your car. That's the exact opposite of the message we should be sending. If I look back on the RR forum I see 9 posts about crashes without even scrolling down. So the newb to the forum takes a stroll over here to see what it's about and this is his/her introduction to our sport? No wonder we're having trouble filling track events this year. I'm more inclined to believe they're posted for morbid fascination as opposed to a learning tool. Go rent "Faces of Death" or watch latenight TV on the Spike channel if you want to see people get hurt.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 18:54
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#10
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: SpectatorRacing wrote: Why would we want to keep people from taking their cars to the track? I thought we were trying to encourage it. I'm all for people with 500 hp weapons learning how to drive them safely in a controlled environment. This forum gives the impression that if you go to a driving school you will smash up your car. That's the exact opposite of the message we should be sending. If I look back on the RR forum I see 9 posts about crashes without even scrolling down. So the newb to the forum takes a stroll over here to see what it's about and this is his/her introduction to our sport? No wonder we're having trouble filling track events this year. I'm more inclined to believe they're posted for morbid fascination more than as a learning tool. Go rent "Faces of Death" or watch latenight TV on the Spike channel if you want to see people get hurt. Well said.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 19:02
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#11
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Reminds me of the Reno Corvette Club, we (Reno SCCA) invite them to our timetrials and Performance Driving Experience, 30 Vettes show up. They have a BBQ, get one parade lap at lunchtime and stand around looking at their cars. Not ONE of them entered the PDX.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 19:17
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ghoffman	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#12
Senior Guru 258 Posts Member since: 2008/1/25 0:00	Quote: BillH wrote: Reminds me of the Reno Corvette Club, we (Reno SCCA) invite them to our timetrials and Performance Driving Experience, 30 Vettes show up. They have a BBQ, get one parade lap at lunchtime and stand around looking at their cars. Not ONE of them entered the PDX. Certainly not me! What is the point of having a car like this if you don't play with it? I hate the crashes, I want to watch racing, not clean up crews.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 21:51

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bmwgsa	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#13
Guru Earth 735 Posts Member since: 2008/3/3 19:46	Quote: bogus wrote: Those that do would have loved Roman chariot racing... Why do I have the urge to watch Ben Hur??????
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 22:13
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CentralCoaster	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#14
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Quote: SpectatorRacing wrote: This forum gives the impression that if you go to a driving school you will smash up your car. That's the exact opposite of the message we should be sending. If I look back on the RR forum I see 9 posts about crashes without even scrolling down. So the newb to the forum takes a stroll over here to see what it's about and this is his/her introduction to our sport? No wonder we're having trouble filling track events this year. Good points, but... People will either race or they won't. I've had countless people I invited say they are afraid of wrecking their car, and countless other excuses about waiting for a paycheck of their car not being ready. (Yet ready enough to take on a road trip across the desert or let their wife drive in heavy traffic?) If you can justify buying a Corvette instead of a Civic you can justify spending $250 on a track day to start learning how to drive it faster than a Civic. What most of them are really saying is, "I'm a little bitch that is afraid of trying new things." Or.... "I'm afraid of what my slave-driver wife will say if I start acting assertive." Those types will talk all day about it, but no matter what you say or do, they never show up. I've even offered to fix people's cars up, pay entry fees for some and hold their hand and be their co-pilot all day. I don't bother anymore. If they express interest, I invite them and maybe show an incar video, if I hear a whiney excuse, I stick a post-it on their forehead that says "L" and move on with the conversation.
	Posted on: 2009/10/12 23:17
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BrianCunningham	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#15
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	I actually work safety, so for me it's more of an accident autopsy. It's kinda my job. I think anyone who buys a high HP car should go to a HPDE. That way they have a better respect for what they bought. Track days are a blast, they can also get you killed. When people learn and respect that, they're better drivers both on and off the track.
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 0:51
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#16
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: BrianCunningham wrote: Track days are a blast, they can also get you killed. That's true Brian but so can the ski slopes. 40k people die on the highways a year, how many on the track?
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 1:37
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#17
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: ghoffman wrote: Certainly not me! What is the point of having a car like this if you don't play with it? I hate the crashes, I want to watch racing, not clean up crews. Hardly, A guy who has (or had) a GT1?
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 1:40
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#18
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: People will either race or they won't. I've had countless people I invited say they are afraid of wrecking their car, and . Those types will talk all day about it, but no matter what you say or do, they never show up. "they are afraid of wrecking their car, Har, vs being a freeway. I know people who use their wife " My wife won't let me", even when it's not true. They don't have the balls to say, I'm too lazy, I just want to sit down somwhere, making an effort is, well, too much effort. They're a part of the S&S group (sit and stare). The biggest thing that can happen to them during the year is to find a new place to sit down, they'll talk about it for months.
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 1:55
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BrianCunningham	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#19
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	Quote: BillH wrote: Quote: BrianCunningham wrote: Track days are a blast, they can also get you killed. That's true Brian but so can the ski slopes. 40k people die on the highways a year, how many on the track? Totally agree, be a lot less if they all got some training.
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 18:11
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#20
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: BrianCunningham wrote: Totally agree, be a lot less if they all got some training. Track days do a bit of training/experience but not anything significant. This would be better for the adult drivers, I instruct with this org for teenagers. www.streetsurvival.org
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 19:19
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#21
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Good points, but... People will either race or they won't. I've had countless people I invited say they are afraid of wrecking their car, and countless other excuses about waiting for a paycheck of their car not being ready. (Yet ready enough to take on a road trip across the desert or let their wife drive in heavy traffic?) Those types will talk all day about it, but no matter what you say or do, they never show up. I've even offered to fix people's cars up, pay entry fees for some and hold their hand and be their co-pilot all day. For the most part, yes. But you're talking about people who already know that you can do this with your street car. I remember when I learned this, it was like a revelation. I always thought you needed to have a full race car to do racing, and that wasn't even on my radar, let alone something I thought I might want to do someday. So if you get someone who drops by to see what this corner of CG is all about, and they see a bunch of crashes, they're not going to ask the question "is this something I want to try?" Give them a chance to be the guy who's too lazy and makes excuses before scaring them off in the first place;) I'm with you about trying to convince people to come to the track, I've stopped asking as well. But at the same time, every now and then I'm surprised by someone who ends up coming. I had two friends start HPDE'ing this year that I never would have thought would be into it.
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 21:16
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CentralCoaster	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#22
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Hmm. Yeah I guess some people don't realize how accessible it is. They think racing involves either being on TV or watching someone else on TV. Or they think they need a Ferrari and don't realize there's guys racing the family car out there. HPDEs are basically useless for building street skills. Because if you drive fast enough on the street to need those track skills, you're going to kill yourself or others eventually. Knowing how fun and safe the track is does make me less likely to want to push the limits on the street though.
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 22:35
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#23
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	HPDE does help with driver competance. I'll agree, if you're driving a car "to the limits" (as we like to say), you shouldn't be doing it on the street. But at the same time, HPDE time helps get a feel for how the car works in these limit situations - things like weight transfer, oversteer, understeer, slip angle, etc. may not come into play until you're in a crisis situation, but hopefully it's become instinctual to countersteer and stay in control. In our vehicle dynamics development one of the first and most important maneuvers to test is the simple lane change. Go out in a parking lot and do an aggressive lane change at 45 mph (not even highway speeds) and see how much steering angle you have to dial in to keep the car going straight. It's instinct for you, right? What about your grandmother? Would she countersteer and stay in the throttle, or lift, take her hands off the wheel, and hit the guardrail?
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 23:21
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#24
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: SpectatorRacing wrote: What about your grandmother? Would she countersteer and stay in the throttle, or lift, take her hands off the wheel, and hit the guardrail? Jon, I wish you were here and could be an instructor at one of the street survival schools with me. It's a different world, no high performance stuff. But it's very interesting.
	Posted on: 2009/10/13 23:36
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#25
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Quote: BillH wrote: Jon, I wish you were here and could be an instructor at one of the street survival schools with me. It's a different world, no high performance stuff. But it's very interesting. I've seen the Mid-Ohio programs which are primarily targeted at teens. They're fantastic. Too bad that kind of thing is very expensive, it's a dream that everyone would have to pass one to get their license... In the meantime, I'll just keep designing technology to keep them alive despite their best efforts to kill themselves out there.
	Posted on: 2009/10/14 14:44
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#26
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: SpectatorRacing wrote: Quote: BillH wrote: Jon, I wish you were here and could be an instructor at one of the street survival schools with me. It's a different world, no high performance stuff. But it's very interesting. I've seen the Mid-Ohio programs which are primarily targeted at teens. They're fantastic. Too bad that kind of thing is very expensive, it's a dream that everyone would have to pass one to get their license... In the meantime, I'll just keep designing technology to keep them alive despite their best efforts to kill themselves out there. That's the beauty of the TireRack/SCCA/BMW street survival course. The cost is $60 which includes a year's membership in SCCA for thr teens.
	Posted on: 2009/10/14 15:14
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BrianCunningham	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#27
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	That's the nice thing about autoxing, it's cheap enough anyone can show up.
	Posted on: 2009/10/14 15:29
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#28
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Can you get instructors at an Auto-X? That would help. However, sitting around all day for three or four 60 second runs down the course is hardly enough time to teach someone vehicle control. You need a lot of time in the vehicle, and preferably, in the classroom before.
	Posted on: 2009/10/14 15:46
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BillH	Re: Why do people keep posting crashes?	#29
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: SpectatorRacing wrote: Can you get instructors at an Auto-X? That would help. However, sitting around all day for three or four 60 second runs down the course is hardly enough time to teach someone vehicle control. You need a lot of time in the vehicle, and preferably, in the classroom before. Yea, really.
	Posted on: 2009/10/14 19:48
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