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| Josh | How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Long story short, I'm just about to finish a short block for my 1991 C4. I've got some Trickflow 195 CC heads that have been ported by Lloyd Elliot that I had planned to use on the motor. However, some AFR 195's just fell into my lap, so I now intend to use those.
My question is how interested would the forum be in me finishing the motor with the Trickflows, tuning and dynoing it, doing the swap, and tuning/dynoing again? My car is a 6 speed, so the dyno chart will be from ~2000 to 6500 or so. I do my own tuning, so that shouldn't be a factor. I'll be on the same dyno, albeit different days. If this is a concern I can dyno a stock 05 CTS-V Cadillac on both days and compare those results to determine if there is any variance in the dyno from day to day. I'm donating my time and the motor for the swap. I'm broke as Hell, so if the forum wants to see this done, as a collective the forum will have to supply me with another set of head gaskets, head bolts, and the cash for another dyno tuning session. I've got about 2 weeks before the AFR heads arrive, so we've got that much time to decide what to do. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 16:38
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Obviously there would be numerous of guys interested in your thread. One reason because we know it will be detailed, and a straight up thread to say the least.
In saying that Josh. Will you be flowing the TFS heads, and finding out the port volume etc....This will make a fair comparo. Also are you getting the street ports or the comp ports? I would think the comp ports would be a fair comparo since buying a set of TFS and having LE port them would prob be around $2000? Not positive..... I think the issue will be collecting funds. How much money are you trying to collect? This certainly will be one very interesting independant test if it happens. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 17:06
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| Matatk | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Are you kidding, we're C4 owners - we want everything to be top of the line and free!
I'd toss in a few bucks, but I don't think you'd get enough to cover all of your costs. Matthew PS - what kind of $ did you spend for the heads? PM me if you don't want it in the forum. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 17:16
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| tpi421vett | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Hey Josh, those ARP head bolts will fine to reuse. So it's just gaskets and dyno time. This is looking interesting.
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 17:55
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Neat, I think there would be some CF members whom would be very interested in this test as well. Vic'89 and TA come to mind and others I am sure...Maybe send them this link or better yet post this over there 2.
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 17:58
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| 1989GTA | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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I agree. I would think most everyone would be interested in the results.
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 18:02
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| tpi421vett | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Oh and Josh... I think you did get a good deal on those heads... LOL! We'll say I gave him a deal.
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 18:36
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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The dyno time will be between $100 and $300 depending on how long it takes me to dial in the new heads. $100 is an hour, $300 is the whole day.
Head gaskets should be pretty cheap, less than $100. or someone could donate them. Another $100 for intake gaskets, coolant, oil, etc... $500 would be the maximum cost I think. That would $300 for tuning, $100 for head gaskets, and $100 for misc stuff. I'm pretty confident that I can dial the tune in in less than hour, especially if all I have to do is compensate for the head swap. That would save us $200, but I don't want to make a promise I might not be able to deliver on. These are the street port heads, but depending on price I might be able to swing the competition port heads. I'll know in a couple days. I'm have neither the time nor the energy to post this on the CF. If someone else wants to link this thread, explain what is going on, etc... Knock yourself out. Rick, in the interest this not turning into a cluster fuck, I would prefer you not be the one to do this. Anyone else is fair game. Josh |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 19:15
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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As far as flow testing, if the group deems that is necessary, and is willing to pay for it, I'll do that as well. I'll just have a local shop flow the heads back to back on the same day.
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 19:26
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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This sounds like a great magazine article.
Perhaps if someone was to contact them. It would give the GURU site some ink in the process. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 19:56
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Yeah, maybe. They do head shoot outs all the time, I don't know that they would be interested in another one. Especially since my TFS heads have been hand ported, a quality which is pretty much impossible to quantify. I dunno though, maybe someone (Andy?) should shoot them an E-mail.
I've been thinking about this quite a bit today, and if Bogus is up for it, this is what I think. Since most of us trust Andy, you guys should send paypal donations to him. If this falls through, he can send you the money back, less the paypal fee. If we spend less than the donated amount, he can split up the remainder and send it back to you. That keeps me out of the money, and prevents any potential conflicts there. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 22:10
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| CentralCoaster | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Now that JSUP is gone, I'm interested in seeing some comparisons.
I wouldn't expect guru to fund the whole test if you've got a big stake in it too. What other mods are done on the motor? Cam? Intake? Are the heads even comparable? What's the going price on these out of the box, and the cost of the porting work? |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 22:36
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Quote:
The main reason why my head threads turned into a cluster was because of one person: Jsup. However, I wouldnt post it on the CF anyways. To make a fair comparo, both heads will need to be measured, or at least the TFS heads imo. We have learned recently that LE porting a set of 195's could yield a final result anywhere from who knows 210cc-235cc. You don't really have to flow the AFR's. I have flow #'s for both the comp and street ports, and so do others. But the TFS heads are anyone's guess. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 23:37
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Are the combustion chambers the same size?
You'll want to get those measured as well. EDIT They only real bugaboo would be port matching the intake. Unless you have one port matched for each head being tested. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 23:42
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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I really don't have the cash to do the heads on the car twice. I'd be willing to donate the car, engine, and labor it if it's something that the forum really wants to see done. If the forum doesn't want to chip in for the parts associated with the swap, I'll just go straight to the AFR heads, sell my TFS heads, and be done with it. Quote: What other mods are done on the motor? Cam? Intake? It's a mild 383. Cast Eagle crank, forged H-beam Eagle rods, and forged SRP pistons. Cam is a hydraulic roller 230/236 XFI cam from Comp Cams; .570/.576, 113 LSA, and 56 degrees of overlap. Intake is a 1205 MR. Quote: Are the heads even comparable? My TFS heads list for $1300 in Summit. I bought them used for $1100. LE charged the original owner $300 to "gasket match and chamber clean." There is no work behind the valves, short side radius, or to the runner roof. I had titanium retainers and beehive springs installed as well, that cost me $300 parts and labor. Total, to duplicate my TFS heads, you would spend $1900. Personally, I have $1400 in them because I bought them used and just had better springs and retainers installed. The AFR street ports are $1440. If you add in the same $300 for springs and titanium retainers, that would work out to $1740. If you do the Competition port heads, they are $2000 but come with the super wazoo double springs so that saves you some cash if you want to upgrade the springs. I don't really know how to quantify the comparability of the heads. Cost breaks down like this: TFS with port work and upgraded springs/retainers, retail - $1900 AFR street ports with upgraded springs/retainers - $1740 AFR competition ports with upgraded springs/retainers - $2000 tpi421vette (or Jim, as I call him) is the AFR dealer selling me the heads. He's an old friend, and when he heard I was doing a short block he offered me some street port heads at a great price. I agreed to the price and then made this thread. Whether I stick with the street ports or go to the competition port heads is entirely up to tpi421vette. I can't really afford to spend more than we agreed on, so if he is willing to do the comp ports for the price we discussed, I'll go that route. If not, then I'll go with the street ports. If the forum won't sack up the coin, I'll go straight to the street ports and be done. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 23:43
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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I'll have a local shop flow both heads back to back if the forum is willing to pay for it. I'll also have them CC the runners and combustion chamber. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/28 23:48
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| CentralCoaster | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Yeah, I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't really trust a comparison of 2 different heads that were tested on two different benches anyways.
Regarding the funding issue, I wasn't trying to pick a number, I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect others to pay for 100% of it if you're benefitting from it as well. I would expect that if the test showed that TFS outperformed the AFR, you wouldn't want to leave the AFRs on there. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 0:05
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| cuisinartvette | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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I wish I had something to donate to the cause but Im flat busted.
AFR heads should be 1205 or very very close to it. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 0:59
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| tpi421vett | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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I think we might be able to work out something on the comp heads
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 2:58
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| tpi421vett | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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One other thing to note. The comp heads come standard with the upgraded spring retainer set up. So they are just regular retail with those upgrades built in. The spring/retainer upgrade is optional for the streeet heads.
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 3:05
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| bogus | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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The Guru can't afford anything right yet... but in time.
I have emailed a couple of folks... lemme see if something comes of it. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 3:42
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Quote:
That is what I was thinking as well. Quote: Regarding the funding issue, I wasn't trying to pick a number, I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect others to pay for 100% of it if you're benefitting from it as well. I see what you are saying, but I don't really stand to gain anything from the comparison. Whether I do the comparison testing or not, I'll most likely end up in the exact same place - With AFR 195's on my engine. The only way that won't happen is if the TFS heads have enough of an advantage over the AFR heads for me to go through the hassle and expense of another head swap. I'd need to see probably 10 HP at some point in the curve to make it worth it to me again. By doing the comparison testing the likely scenario is that all I am doing is incurring more cost, spending more time, and swapping heads an extra time to arrive at the same place - With AFR 195's on my engine. I don't have a problem with the time and the labor, it's the couple hundred bucks of miscellaneous parts and dyno time that I'm struggling with. Quote: I would expect that if the test showed that TFS outperformed the AFR, you wouldn't want to leave the AFRs on there. You are 100% correct. Depending on the difference in power, I may swap back to the TFS heads. This is really the only way I stand to benefit from the comparison testing that I see. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 4:17
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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It looks like I'll be using competition port heads instead of the street ports. Jim (tpi421vette) has stepped up and offered me a deal I can't refuse on the comp ports under the condition that I go through with the testing.
Unfortunately, the price is more than I was going to pay for the street ports by about $250 dollars, so the need for donations is greater than ever right now. In the interest of full disclosure, here's the break down of my budget: I had $4,000 to spend on the motor. The short block is 2K. I need to buy a miniram intake and some fuel rails. I have a line on a used one for $750, but if that falls through I'll end up spending almost $1500 on the set up from TPIS. Doing the math for the best case scenario, that only leaves me $1250 for the heads. While I am getting a stellar deal on the heads, they are quite a bit more than $1250. If the intake deal doesn't work out, I'm going to have to come out of pocket even more. What is killing me is the fact that if I do the comparison testing I can't sell my TFS heads before I pay for the AFR heads. My plan when Jim first came to me with the great deal was to do exactly that, sell the TFS heads and then take Jim up on his offer. If I do the test for everyone, I can't do it in that order, which forces me to come up with all the money for the AFR heads without selling my TFS heads. I can't afford to keep both sets of heads and pay for the testing. Basically, at the end of the day, I'm broke as fuck and the forum will have to help if they want to see this happen. It's a shitty situation but it is what it is. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 4:34
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| BeachBum | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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This particular test doesn't really do much for me, but I can see how it would be interesting to others with 350-383's due to the boilerplate application hitting the target dead-on with a zero. Meaning, this test applies to most hobby modders considering most stay with the stock block or just stroke to a 383. With that in mind, I would help out by lending my Miniram for the test, thus Josh wouldn't need to buy one before the test. Included with the Miniram would be the fuel rails as well as my 58mm Throttle Body. Although I haven't run my particular Miniram yet, I believe it to be a 1205 based upon my ruler.
I would pay for shipping as well. When it gets down to the point this test is actually going to happen, let me know, I'll ship to wherever Josh wants me too. Good Luck ! |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 5:40
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| BeachBum | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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On another note, I'd also ship out my AFR 227 competition eliminators for a battle against their little brother AFR 195's.....
Would be interesting to see if they make more HP without any significant low-end torque loss on a 383..... |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 5:48
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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That is really nice of you to do that. This could turn into one of the most interesting threads in along time for the C4 (Gen1) guys. I too would love to see the 195's vs the 227's, but it seems like funding might be an issue. I bet the little brother (as BB puts it) would show his big brother a thing or two on a 383. From what I read it sounds like if Josh doesnt get any funding then he will bolt on the comp ports and be done with it? That will still be kool! Goodluck! |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 12:14
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| BeachBum | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Big Brother always beats-up Little Brother.... its the nature of the animal kingdom !  I will say, my contribution offer is only good for another week or two.... I'm going to start putting this stuff together within the next few weeks or so..... but, if thats the case, I would pony up a few bucks to contribute towards the cause..... |
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Posted on: 2009/1/29 22:19
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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I'll do what ever the forum wants as far as multiple head swaps, assuming the forum is willing to fund most of it.
Thanks for the offer of the MR, but I just closed on the one for $750. Hopefully, I'll have some more details on how the financing will work soon. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/30 0:02
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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I'll be using the AFR 195 Competition ports for the comparison. I should have my motor ready to go by the first part of next week. With any luck, we'll start to see flow test and intake runner sizes from the TFS heads in about 2 weeks. The AFR heads are 2 weeks out at a minimum, so I should be able to have the TFS heads flowed and CC'd, on the car, dyno'd, and maybe even have some track time on them before the AFR heads arrive.
Thanks to all those that donated. |
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Posted on: 2009/2/2 3:33
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Get a chance to spec the TFS yet?
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Posted on: 2009/2/8 17:00
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| Josh | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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The TFS heads and short block are still at the engine builders. The short block was done last Thursday, but I've been out of town for work until tonight. I'll pick up the short block and TFS heads tomorrow, then begin the process of testing the TFS heads.
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Posted on: 2009/2/9 4:41
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| bogus | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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Josh,
You have email... |
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Posted on: 2009/2/10 6:01
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: How interested is the forum in seeing some back to back head tests? | ||
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10-4. It will be interesting to see how the heads compare to each other. |
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Posted on: 2009/2/11 21:37
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