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mechguy79 | Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Guru Newb
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First...I apologize if this is a repeat question. I tried searching and didn't find much. I read this article a while ago and can't get it out of my head:
http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com/ ... 350%20chevy%20engine.html I really like this idea, and I wanted to hit you guys up and see what you thought. Plus's, minus's, plain ol' dumb? Thanks all. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/21 11:45
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Matatk | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Gee, if I had a 400 block like they do I'd just make a 406 out of it. Why all this special crap with using ford connecting rods that have to be machined, special pistons, etc. Seems like an expensive way to get 400 hp.
Interesting, though. I've never seen that done. Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/6/21 15:10
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Elite Guru
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I'm building a roller 405 out of my Gen1 400, and I'm expecting near 450 FW HP from my combo.
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Posted on: 2009/6/21 17:09
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bogus | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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This seems to answer a question that really didn't need to be asked. I don't see the point in it.
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Posted on: 2009/6/21 20:46
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mechguy79 | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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I was really interested in the relationship to TDC dwell, long rods, big bore vs stroke, all adding up to higher compression capabilities with low octane gas. I just thought it was a cool engine. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/22 9:19
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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What is the combo? -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/6/22 13:03
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BrianCunningham | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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That used to be done back when you couldn't get a forged 400 crank.
It was also done if you want revs with a big bore and unshrouwded valves. Not done a lot now days though. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/22 13:25
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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SBC 400 Front Pad: T10140SA Casting: 3951511 Date: J12-72 Compression Ratio Data Bore Size - 4.145" Piston Stroke - 3.75" Head Gasket Bore - 4.190" Compressed Gasket Thickness - 0.038" Chamber Volume - 64cc Dish Volume - 12.5cc Deck Clearance - 0.025" Estimated SCR - 10.15:1 405 ci (Bored +.020) 6.638 liters per cyl. 6633.85 CCs Retrofitted for V6 Hydraulic Roller Lifters 5.7" Rods 12.5cc Dish Speed Pro Pistons COMP CAMS SBC 288 XTREME ENERGY HYD. ROLLER CAM #12-433-8 64cc chamber/ 190cc Intake Runner Aluminum Vortec Heads .600" Springs Self Aligning Roller Rockers Vortec Air Gap Intake Manifold |
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Posted on: 2009/6/22 14:19
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Hrmm. Sounds good. V6 hydraulic roller lifters huh? I saw a thread on this on thirdgen a couple years back. Is it reliable? I myself and thinking of 400 based motor, though my target would be closer to 500-520hp. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/6/22 14:47
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Elite Guru
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Hrmm. Sounds good. Yeah I personally think the stock style retainers are more reliable than link bar setups. I've seen way too many of those link bars fail...which leads to disaster. The dog bone retainers would only fail if there was an oil starvation issue. The lifters themselves would be the same, since there are only a handful of manufacturers and all vendors use those same lifters including factory applications. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/22 14:56
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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I looked up the procedure again to retrofit the lifters. Eh.. Perhaps the stock ones are more reliable, but the price of the Zbar lifters has come down so much now that I'll just use those. Looking at doing a 412. forged pistons, 5.7" sir rods. I've been looking at the XR288HR cam myself, though with the 412 it's going to bring the powerband down to closer to 5400 rpm. Comp recommended an XR294HR. The only thing that I didn't notice the other day that I'd like to give you a word of advise on is your deck height. .025" + .038" is way too much. You want to keep it around .040-.045" total for good quench. Assuming your pistons actually put your clearance at .025", that would be more for a shim gasket of around .020".. I almost bought a 511 block, however the seller mentioned it smoked after he had it rebuilt, and wasn't sure if the machinest used torque plates. A 400 block absolutely needs torque plates when boring and honing because the block distorts around 2 thou when it is torqued down, so you can't bore it without a torque otherwise you'll get an oval cylinder. A local guy has a 817 block I might use. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/6/24 18:43
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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The only thing that I didn't notice the other day that I'd like to give you a word of advise on is your deck height. .025" + .038" is way too much. You want to keep it around .040-.045" total for good quench. Assuming your pistons actually put your clearance at .025", that would be more for a shim gasket of around .020". Joe I actually went from the thin gasket to the one I picked for compression. I know the quench is now a bit large but my compression is 10.15:1. Any thinner and I will be into 93, and there just aren't many places that sell that around here. I'd be locked in Columbia with no way to travel without a trailer. Not only that but the higher compression would detract from what streetability I was trying to keep. I had a long talk with the Comp guys and after going over my engine specs and going over what I was looking for out of this engine they came to the final suggestion of the XR288HR. I enjoyed talking to their techs. Very friendly with a lot of knowledge to back everything up. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/24 20:21
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BeachBum | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Master Guru
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Thats an old article, I remember reading it around 10 years ago or so.... But, I do not like the idea, the only reason to run a destroked motor like that is if you're running in a heads-up class that requires a cubic inch limit.... and your approach is to spin the motor as high as you can such as 8000+ rpm. There might be a road racing reason to run it due to extended high rpm jaunts, but not sure. It was and is fairly common to see some racers de-stroke a 400 with a 3.48" crank (Standard for all 350's) to get 377 cubic inch motor, which is better, it gives you the big bore you want to unshroud the valves and yet the rod/stroke ratio will in theory now let you rev the motor way up..... but even that, isn't really done anymore..... people have figured out either with good well prepped 509 blocks or aftermarket blocks that 406's as well as 420-434's can easily go up to a respectable rpm.... just build it right the first time. If you have a good 406 which has a 3.75" crank and you're throwing in a hyd cam for the street.... there is no reason in the world that I can think of to destroke it to even a 377 let alone that 327 mini-crank..... If you have a "good" 400 block, if I was you, I would actually do the opposite of what they say and slide in a 3.875" crank to get 421..... it'll do great at all rpm's under 6500 rpm, loads of torque and HP. But, have fun with whatever you do. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/24 21:53
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Master Guru
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I see your point, although my feeling is with aluminum heads and proper quench you'll actually avoid detonation. Keep in mind, a 10.15:1 motor with aluminum heads has about the same octane requirements as a 9.5:1 motor with iron heads. The vette I just sold was 10.14:1, and ran 8 psi of boost on 92 octane with no detonation/knock/pinging. Was a 3.48 forged crank, 5.850" rods, 383 reverse dome pistons to use the 5.850" rods, .044" quench, trickflow heads with an angle mill to 55cc. 26* advance under boost. The previous season when I ran it naturally aspirated, I ran a cc-306 cam and 36* advance on 92 octane. I agree, the comp cams guys are great. How is the cam to rod clearance? That is the only thing I'm worried about. I think I'm gonna run the XR288HR cam too. The pistons I'm using are the 16.2cc reverse dome, with a .044" quench I'm looking at around 10.4:1 compression ratio on some 250+ cfm 64cc heads. On good gas that should translate to a hair over 500hp.. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 12:38
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Elite Guru
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Keep in mind, a 10.15:1 motor with aluminum heads has about the same octane requirements as a 9.5:1 motor with iron heads. I'll re-crunch the numbers and see what I get. The other issue I was running into was that a good quality head gasket, thin enough, with steam holes for the 400, AND compatible with aluminum heads...was hard to find. I haven't stabbed the cam in the engine yet but I am anticipating rod bolt clearance issues. I am planning to wrap the lobes with a layer of painter's masking tape to guard against nicks, and check for tolerances. I expect I will have to grind at least 4 rod bolts, maybe all 8. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 12:50
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Master Guru
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A thin head gasket aluminum heads friendly is big money. That's why I normally deck my blocks with around .005" clearance, cuz I can use the cheaper MLS felpro gaskets. If you didn't purchase the cam already, comp can do the same grind on a smaller base circle for the same cost. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 18:36
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Elite Guru
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If you didn't purchase the cam already, comp can do the same grind on a smaller base circle for the same cost. I actually already had this cam in a small base circle for strokers. I had to sell it to get the money back for the larger base circle. The reason is because of the V6 lifters I am using for the roller retrofit. The small base circle cam allows the lifters to fall much further into the lifter bore, keep the oil feed hole unsealed and in constant contact with the oil feed. Not only that but when they were down fully they would come completely out of the bottom of the retainer. I figured it was easier to just go back to a larger base circle cam, and deal with grinding the rod bolts. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 18:50
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Master Guru
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The v6 lifters are shorter than the v8, right? I wonder if using the v8 lifters is possible with the smaller base circle, without lubrication failures.. The only thing I don't like is the drilling and inserting studs into the lifter valley to hold the spider retainer down. I just feel like you risk something eventually backing out. Not that it's much different than OEM... Where do you expect your peak HP ? Around 5700-5800 or so? -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 18:56
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1989GTA | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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"Yeah I personally think the stock style retainers are more reliable than link bar setups."
Lighter to boot. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 18:57
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Elite Guru
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The v6 lifters are shorter than the v8, right? I wonder if using the v8 lifters is possible with the smaller base circle, without lubrication failures.. Yeah the V6 lifters are shorter, so with a standard base circle they are PERFECT. The V8 lifters, even on a small base circle cam, still sit a bit low. The oil feed hole never comes completely out of the feed, and therefor can't seal against the side of the lifter bore. The material at the top of that lifter valley where I drilled the holes was quite thick, and I used lock washers AND a jamb nut. I don't think the studs are going anywhere. With my Air Gap manifold, 288 cam, and hopefully the twin side draft carbs, I'm thinking peak HP will be around 5700, though I won't go that high very often. I prefer utilizing the lower RPM band and playing with the torque...as I'm expecting will be quite substantial with the 405. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 19:01
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Master Guru
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What is the rough cost of the v6 lifters? You also have to drill and install a retainer plate, right? and then use a timing set for a 87+ roller block? -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 20:03
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Elite Guru
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What is the rough cost of the v6 lifters? Well there are a few ways to go for the V6 lifters. You can source them from salvage yard V6 engines...very cheap. Used lifters are fine so long as the they were properly oiled throughout their life and the roller surface isn't marred. I found mine on Ebay, a set of new lifters for $50, and I had to buy four more new ones locally which was more per lifter. If you bought all 16 new at a local parts store you'll pay over $200 for just the lifters. I have leftover retainers and the hold down spider bar if you get to needing them, let me know. They make roller cams specifically for retrofit applications now so they have the flat nose as opposed to the later model step nose. For this reason all you need is a cam button to keep the cam from walking. As far as I know, it's not feasible to machine the front of the block to accept a late model retainer plate for step nose cams and timing sets. I don't even know if it would all line up right mixing and matching. I got a two piece timing cover that has a removable cam plate and integrated cam button. Very handy. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/25 20:23
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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So. V6 lifters, -12 series comp cam (i.e, 12-433-12 for us), a cam button and some drilling to the lifter valley? So you have not heard of any oiling failures with the v6 lifters? Drilling the block kind of freaks me out, but if the machine shop did it while it's there it would be almost worth paying $100+ due to the cost savings of the lifters. If you have any pictures of your drilling/studs I'd like to see them. It's somewhat tempting. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/6/26 3:06
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Elite Guru
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When I performed this mod I didn't think to take many pictures. The drilling is super easy. mark the holes using the spider bar. Drill pilot holes. Drill sized holes. Tap holes. Cut studs to length, use jamb nuts and lock washers to space the spider bar up to simulate the bosses cast into the late blocks, and that's it.
Don't forget though that you will have to use a die grinder and a diamond bit to clearance around the tops of the lifters bores so the retainers sit perfectly flat. As it is there is some extra casting around the walls of the lifter valley that keeps them from sitting flat. On a 350 this doesn't equal much clearancing but on my 400 there was quite a bit more extra casting. |
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Posted on: 2009/6/26 9:54
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Master Guru
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Due to rod clearance, I need to go with a small base circle cam on my 412. (double checked). Too close for comfort. So it's retro lifters for me, if roller is in my future with this block. Though, i'm sorta thinking of going with a solid lifter cam rather than hydraulic.. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/7/13 2:23
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rklessdriver | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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I have never liked the 60* V-6 hy roller lifter deal. It's a neat way to use parts from an otherwise completely worthless engine family but it has some potential problems I would rather just not deal with.
Something about drilling for the tie bar retiner (spyder) and then having the tie bars (dog bones) sitting on the unmachined/as cast top of the lifter bore just doesn't sit well with me in any hi-performance application. Also depending on the base circle of the camshaft the oil band is not really in the right place and you could end up relying on oil seeping thru the lifter bore clearance to get oil to the topend... Now add in the fact that good retro fit hyd roller lifters are getting cheaper all the time.... http://www.competitionproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=91164 When you add in how much labor it is to do all that iffy work to make 60* V-6 lifters work in a SBC you almost at the point of diminishing return considering the retro fit vertical tie bar lifters are a proven hi-performance part. The only ones I've seen fail were owned by morons who didn't have enough spring pressure to control the valve train at the RPM they were turning and vlave float/lifter bounce destroyed them. The retro fit lifters are heavy and in a SBC you needed around 145 lbs/380 lbs to turn 6500RPM with them on a decent cam profile back in the mid 90's. Todays hyd roller profiles have come a long way with the opening/closing ramps so you may get away with a little less spring if you utilize the newer grinds. Will |
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Posted on: 2009/7/13 13:48
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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BrianCunningham | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Posted on: 2009/7/13 14:04
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Master Guru
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Hey Brian,
That's impressive.. I can't tell from the pictures, is that a steel roller cam or a cast iron flat tappet? The lobes don't look aggressive. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/7/13 14:29
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
Master Guru
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You know, I was a supporter of this initially, but I've since spoken to a few guys that ruined blocks trying to grind down the area above the lifter bore, and I've spoken to other guys that had internal oil leaks because as you suggested the lifter didn't sit right in the bore. It's not at all possible with a small base circle cam, and if for some reason the cam centerline in the block is a hair lower than normal the lifter still doesn't sit right. I'm still torn on cams. Solid roller should make more power, but might explode. Hydraulic roller will run forever, but the plunger takes a lot of the bite out of the cam. Though I have been reading a lot lately about an interesting way of adjusting hydraulics. Guys put a .015" feeler gauge between the roller and the valve (rocker), then crank the lifter down (at TDC) until the plunger bottoms out. Remove the feeler and you have exactly .015" clearance in the plunger on every lifter, rather than trying to get a specific preload. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/7/13 14:35
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BrianCunningham | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Steel roller with a TON of lift 9,000rpm track engine |
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Posted on: 2009/7/13 16:17
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_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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rklessdriver | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Guys put a .015" feeler gauge between the roller and the valve (rocker), then crank the lifter down (at TDC) until the plunger bottoms out. Remove the feeler and you have exactly .015" clearance in the plunger on every lifter, rather than trying to get a specific preload. Joe I have used this valve adjustment on hyd rollers a few times in the past - but it really only mask the problem. With all the work I've put into mine in the past 2yrs (almost), I'm begining to dislike hyd rollers for serious hi-performance engines more and more everyday. Once you get to a certian point it is knives edge balancing act of valve spring, lobe rate and external stability. You get one bit out of kilter in any one of them and the whole shebang goes to hell.... I like mech rollers. If you have good oil supply at the lifter wheel and valve springs a mech roller will live a very long time. A tight lash lobe profile will go a long way to keeping the valve adjustment in check - which is the only other big killer of mech roller parts I have seen. With the HIPPO (MOREL and CROWER) lifters and spring oiler V/C or shaft mount rockers we have now I think one could make a mech roller live forever in a street car. I'll tell you what... If that fricken hyd roller in my 92 eats one more set of valve springs, I'm going to switch my car over to a T/L mech roller and find out. Will |
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Posted on: 2009/7/13 19:31
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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I've had a lot of issues over the years as well, but I considered it related to boost. I've had springs break, valve float on one pass, but not on another at the same RPM. I've gone with bigger springs to handle the floating, to then have hydraulic roller lifters fail (comp cams). I've also had issues with the stupid polylocks on the roller rockers losen up, which has nothing to do with hydraulic roller cams but another thing that has driven me nuts over the years. I like the idea of solid flat tappet, with the exception of break in. It takes a lot of confidence to get crank, broom, and run for 20 minutes especially when your putting something together that has been sitting for years and using mostly new parts. You have to eyeball timing as close as possible, have a parter hold the idle while you get the timing spot on (or you'll burn an exhaust guide/valve), ensure the carb has fuel, ensure no trapped air in the system is going to cause it to overheat, etc. And if your running EFI, hah, forget it. It's a 50/50 if it will start and idle, sputter and die, etc. On new hyd motors, I'd go through about 20 starts before I had the base calibration good enough to idle for a while. Good luck doing that crap on a flat tappet cam. But then, there is the fears of the solid roller lifters exploding. I understand a solid roller cam doesn't need a high idle break in, but any issues with oiling and WHAM! a lifter might break, tanking a $4,000 short block. Though you would think that a motor with a M55HV pump, that gets like 80+ psi at idle would be fine.. I guess it's not just about the pressure ? I'm torn... But either way, I think it's going to have to be on a small base circle. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/7/13 23:17
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Did some research on this. The "smaller base circle" translates into a literal smaller lobe. The core of the camshaft is the same diameter, same with bearing journals and all that. I can't see why having smaller lobes would case a core to break like that.. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/10/6 21:13
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Andrew | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
2013 Memorial Day Car Show Winner!
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Wow, my head is spinning. Learning quite a bit from reading this thread / discussion.
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Posted on: 2009/10/7 1:49
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_________________
2003 Atomic Orange Z06 Sold - 1996 Competition Yellow LT4 - DRM 383, NX N2O, Line Lock, LT Headers, 3" stainless exhaust, Power Effects, and many more mods SOLD 1996 Competition Yellow LT4 SOLD 1979 4 Speed with 383 |
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Durango_Boy | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Last time I saw a snapped cam like that it was a very aggressive cam being abused in an engine that didn't have perfectly straight cam bore. It was off just enough that before it was checked he snapped two or three cams. |
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Posted on: 2009/10/7 10:26
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anesthes | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Yeah , I'm sure there could be a number of reasons. I just wanted to revisit the thread, because in my opinion the diameter of the lobe shouldn't represent the strength of the core because it's just totally unrelated. I went with the XR288HR btw, on a small base circle. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/10/7 13:50
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CentralCoaster | Re: Make a 350 out of a 400??? | ||
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Joe, DB, please start your own thread.
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Posted on: 2009/10/7 19:28
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