Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned [Forums - C4 Technical]

C4 Technical > Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned
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BrianCunningham	Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#1
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	I kept hearing this noise from the front of my car, same corner I just did brake rotors pads and a beaing on. 1st thing I did was check the caliper bracket bolts, all torqued down. The caliper itself is bouncing around in the mount. So the guide rails are worn out! More likely than not I'll be doing this kit http://forums.corvetteforum.com/autoc ... wood-on-a-c4-it-fits.html Quote: redls1gto;
	Posted on: 2009/8/18 19:00
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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BeachBum	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#2
Master Guru 751 Posts Member since: 2008/11/20 17:01	I'm with you, I'm overdue for a complete new brake system. Can I ask what that Wilwood system cost for all corners total ? I am considering doing some road racing this coming year and I know I'll need a serious brake upgrade, but I have no wisdom in this area besides the knowledge that you should push the peddle if you want to stop.
	Posted on: 2009/8/18 19:28

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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#3
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	~$1,800
	Posted on: 2009/8/18 19:33
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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CentralCoaster	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#4
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Uh... try again. The fronts alone are about $1800. I didn't know they had anything for the rear, maybe just a cheesy rotor upgrade or something. They do have a separate caliper ebrake setup that could be adapted, thus allowing you to put a conventional caliper there too, but it's not cheap. I think the rears are fine as long as you can get enough pressure to them. I would look at Stoptech first. How big are the pistons in that WW caliper compared to your stock pistons?
	Posted on: 2009/8/18 19:46
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#5
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	yes, since I want to keep the e-brake, I'm just doing the front here's the piston info http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKitsProd.aspx?itemno=140-8337-R
	Posted on: 2009/8/18 20:04
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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CentralCoaster	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#6
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Multiply your old rotor size by your old piston area and multiply by 2 (floating caliper) and then compare that with the Wilwood numbers. They should be equal. I don't have much faith in their claim that it's engineered to be application specific. With the C5 upgrade I used, the rotors AND pistons were larger than stock C5 brakes have. This is ridiculous because it removes rear bias when installed on a C5. Obviously I used it on a different application, but that's not my point.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 0:07
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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Matatk	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#7
Webmaster SW Chicago Burbs 22805 Posts Member since: 2008/1/7 0:00	That's a lotta dough for those wilwoods. What is the proven stopping benefit over a c5 upgrade? Matthew
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 3:14
	_________________ 2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP
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CentralCoaster	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#8
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Supposedly better rotor metallurgy, better heat capacity and cooling, reduced rotational inertia, less heat conduction to bearing, tapered piston sizes to reduce pad taper, better pad selection, stiffer caliper, and stainless pistons for less heat transfer to fluid, and pads can be swapped without pulling caliper.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 6:12
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#9
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	C5's and C6's save the Z06 & ZR1 are still slide rail calipers. opposed pistons caliper, though heaving, offer much better clamping capabilities. You just can't get the same force and stiffness from a caliper that's not rigidly mounted. The different sized pistons help fight pad taper.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 13:17
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#10
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Supposedly better rotor metallurgy, better heat capacity and cooling, reduced rotational inertia, less heat conduction to bearing, tapered piston sizes to reduce pad taper, better pad selection, stiffer caliper, and stainless pistons for less heat transfer to fluid, and pads can be swapped without pulling caliper. In other words, nothing unless you're racing. If you want better feel on the street you're going to get much more effect with a set of appropriate brake pads on your existing brakes.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 15:22
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BillH	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#11
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: SpectatorRacing wrote: If you want better feel on the street you're going to get much more effect with a set of appropriate brake pads on your existing brakes. Agreed. That being said, Hawks on a std. C4 system are better but the brakes still suck.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 15:27
	_________________ Every man dies but not every man lives.
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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#12
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	I've boiled my J55's at the track NEVER want to do THAT again
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 15:48
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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CentralCoaster	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#13
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	A smart person would run until they get fade or boiling and then run either higher temp pads or better fluid. If you're boiling the best fluid or fading the highest temp pads you can tolerate driving, you need bigger brakes on that end of the car, while keeping the bias correct of course. Some say that means you just need to use your brakes less, I think this is hogwash. The faster you go the more you'll need to brake. Unless you just suck at driving and are just slowing down too much or dragging the brake pedal. I've seen the setups where the fluid recirculates too, that's an interesting work around.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 16:41
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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BillH	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#14
The Stig Moderator Reno 22702 Posts Member since: 2007/12/25 0:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Some say that means you just need to use your brakes less, I think this is hogwash. The faster you go the more you'll need to brake. Unless you just suck at driving and are just slowing down too much or dragging the brake pedal. Agreed, I think that comes from so many HPDE drivers that do overuse the brakes. I see it all the time.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 16:46
	_________________ Every man dies but not every man lives.
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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#15
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: A smart person would run until they get fade or boiling and then run either higher temp pads or better fluid. that IS what I'm doing now. I'd rather go faster, hence the purchase. or would you rather go back to stock yourself?
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 17:14
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#16
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	I guess I should have said "unless you're driving on a track." I honestly can't vouch for the stock C4 brakes because my car had aftermarket calipers on it when I bought it. I have heard enough negative press from people I trust (mostly you guys) to believe that it is an inadequate system for even HPDE use. However, the C5 brakes, in stock trim (but with aggressive pads and good fluid) are fine on a C5. I can only assume that they're also adequate for a C4, even on track and with the stock single piston rear caliper. FWIW, most C4 race cars keep the stock rear caliper. There was a time when people were upgrading the fronts and moving the stock fronts to the rear, but there wasn't much advantage.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 18:17
	_________________ aka Scaryfast
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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#17
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	Turns out you can get the 6 pot Brembos for the new Caddy CTS-V for $200ea! http://forums.corvetteforum.com/autoc ... kes-2.html#post1571194278 Something tells me I'll be making brackets instead!
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 18:54
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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ghoffman	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#18
Senior Guru 258 Posts Member since: 2008/1/25 0:00	Slide rail calipers suck, period. Are they good enough for a street car, sure, but it is very easy to get spoiled once you drive something like the Willwood kit. The SL6 is available in so many piston sizes, it is easy for them to balance a system. In addition, you can go wil slightly more piston area, because the slide rail calipers flex so much, the net volume is the same.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 19:05

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88BlackZ51	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#19
Senior Guru 481 Posts Member since: 2008/10/2 8:40	Quote: BeachBum wrote: I'm with you, I'm overdue for a complete new brake system. Can I ask what that Wilwood system cost for all corners total ? I am considering doing some road racing this coming year and I know I'll need a serious brake upgrade, but I have no wisdom in this area besides the knowledge that you should push the peddle if you want to stop. C5 or C6 upgrade is all you will probably need Todd unless you are doing some serious road racing.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 19:15

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CentralCoaster	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#20
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Quote: BrianCunningham wrote: or would you rather go back to stock yourself? Honestly I regret not giving it a shot with some race pads and Motul. I believe Hawk did offer black or blue compound. I like making the most of things, especially against the checkbook racers. I only bought the Wilwoods and made them work because I got a killer deal on them. For the price I paid, they were probably stolen. Don't ask, don't tell.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 19:43
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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SpectatorRacing	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#21
Elite Guru 1721 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 0:00	Quote: 88BlackZ51 wrote: C5 or C6 upgrade is all you will probably need Todd unless you are doing some serious road racing. Even if you are doing some serious road racing Although you want C5. I've heard a lot of problems with the C6, at least the C6Z calipers.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 20:02
	_________________ aka Scaryfast
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ghoffman	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#22
Senior Guru 258 Posts Member since: 2008/1/25 0:00	The C6Z calipers are terrible for about a half dozen reasons. Honestly, if my truck was not a lease, I would change out the slide rail calipers. I might see if I can get the Brembo in my truck.
	Posted on: 2009/8/19 23:44

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88BlackZ51	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#23
Senior Guru 481 Posts Member since: 2008/10/2 8:40	I am going to get the base C6 calipers. So is it just the C6Z calipers that have issues, and if so what are they? Thanks.
	Posted on: 2009/8/20 0:50

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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#24
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	The base C6 calipers are still slide rail but the Brembos, which cost the same are 6 pot
	Posted on: 2009/8/20 1:13
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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ghoffman	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#25
Senior Guru 258 Posts Member since: 2008/1/25 0:00	How do I love thee? let me count the ways: Thin, expensive padlets that taper in 2 axes, and are gone in one track day. Very heavy, but flexy caliper Steel pins that seize into their raw aluminum bores. Apparently, no one at PBR knew/cared that plated steel on raw aluminum makes a great battery with salt water. Powder coating that flakes off Single pads are available, but very expensive ($700 per car set), and without a stagger bore caliper, taper. Left side only, very heavy, holey OE rotors with holes that propagate cracks. I can continue...
	Posted on: 2009/8/20 1:21

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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#26
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	BTW I still have these beasties IF I could figure out how to get them to fit
	Posted on: 2009/8/20 13:10
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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CentralCoaster	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#27
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Is the main issue with the slide rail that it doesn't slide as soon as the caliper has torque on it? Seems like it'd only float the instant the brakes are applied, and after that it just jams the rotor from the piston side and the outboard side just gets whatever pressure it can after the slide rails are done stealing it away in the form of friction. My brother's 1985 toyota pickup came with fixed calipers. WTF is wrong with chevy that they're still putting slide rail on their newest flagship car? Is it only a cost benefit?
	Posted on: 2009/8/20 20:13
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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CentralCoaster	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#28
Senior Guru San Diego, CA 9454 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 0:00	Quote: Single pads are available, but very expensive ($700 per car set), and without a stagger bore caliper, taper. How would a stagger bore help with padlets? Or are you saying because the top pads wear less overall? Seems to me it's because those small pads twist more easily than a wider single pad would, nothing to do with the piston sizes.
	Posted on: 2009/8/20 20:19
	_________________ 1985 Z51, ZF6
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ghoffman	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#29
Senior Guru 258 Posts Member since: 2008/1/25 0:00	True, but I am speaking about replacing the 3 padlets with one big pad. Several companies are now selling this, it theis is when you need the stagger bores, not with the padlets.
	Posted on: 2009/8/20 20:29

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BrianCunningham	Re: Looks like I'll be doing a brake upgrade a little sooner than planned	#30
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 7763 Posts Member since: 2007/12/30 0:00	The more I look into it the more of a bargain this kit looks. The $200 Brembos are the 4 pots (not the 6 pots), same as on an EVO or STI 6 pot Wilwoods are only $400ea What drives the cost of the kit up is that it's complete Calipers, pads, rotors and the adapters. And it's the same brakes racers put on GT1 cars!
	Posted on: 2009/8/21 13:49
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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