65th Anniversary and no thread?

U.S. Envoy Attends Hiroshima Event
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/07/world/asia/07japan.html?src=me

My 31 year old daughter read this book when in 4th grade, and origami being one of her hobbies, she demonstrated the folding of the paper cranes to the class. It made an impression on her.




Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes is a non-fiction children's book written by American author Eleanor Coerr and published in 1977.

The story is of a girl, Sadako Sasaki, who lived in Hiroshima at the time of the atomic bombing by the United States. She developed leukemia from the radiation and spent her time in a nursing home folding paper cranes in hope of making a thousand, which supposedly would have allowed her to make one wish, which was to live. However, she managed to fold 644 before she became too weak to fold any more, and died shortly after. Her friends and family helped finish her dream by folding the rest of the cranes which was buried with Sadako and build a statue of Sadako holding a giant golden paper crane in Hiroshima Peace Park after she died. Now every year on O Bon Day, which is a holiday in Japan to remember the fallen ones of the bombings, thousand of people leave paper cranes near the statue. On the statue is a plaque: "This is our cry. This is our prayer. Peace on Earth."

The book has been translated to many languages and published in many places, to be used for peace education programs in primary schools.

How many Japanese dignitaries have visited the USS Arizon memorial? Have they apologized for their unprovoked attack? Have either they or Germany made any restitution for the damages inflicted on the United States?

Do I feel sorry that we dropped the A bomb on two Japanese cities? Yes. But I would feel even worse had we been forced to actually invade Japan.

"WAR IS HELL"

Step back for a moment. I see a bit too much simplicity going on. It's not that simple.

To answer questions: Yes, many Japanese dignitaries have visited the Arizona over the years. But they have not apologized; the attack was not supposed to be a surprise! If the document had been translated in time, it would have been delivered just prior to the first planes hitting. Culturally, the Japanese view the surprise attack as a cowardly act.

By 1945, the militarists were so entrenched with their perversion of the Bushido code, they had such control over the ppl of Japan. Control we cannot comprehend.

Was the a-bomb needed? Yes. I would hate to think the loss of life if we invaded. The history tells us that hitting them, twice was necessary. Up to the point that the militarists were going to kidnap Hirohito and stop him from surrendering to the Allies.

Two final thoughts: Japan has become a very stable ally in the Pacific. When you consider it took them 40 years to build their empire... and it took the US only three years to take it apart. I think they got the hint.

The other: There is no question that a lot of ppl died in the nuclear attacks; tragic for sure. But these attacks have been the empirical data needed to keep it from happening again. I am convinced that if the bombs didn't fall on Japan, WWIII would have happened.

Dude, if you want a memorial thread, can we keep the politics out of it?

Otherwise I'm going to squat and shit on the next Memorial day thread. But since you went there, I don't think attacks on innocent people are EVER justified. Next you'll probably say that they weren't innocent because some were working for private companies on military production. But so was half of the U.S.

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who me?

I actually BUILT nuclear weapons for a while.

I remember Hiroshima

My Dad and his WW2 Marine Fighter Squadron was preparing for the invasion of Japan. Estimated loss of life the first day of the invasion on the American side was 200,000. His fighter squadron was expected to be in that loss column. I read the "letter" he had written to his family.
He talked about the Bushido Warrior Code that he faced in the islands. The Japanese were relentless. The Atomic Bomb saved a lot of lives on both sides. I guess you would have be one of the grunts preparing yourself for death to appreciate what the bomb did. Estimated over 650,000 Sailors, Marines,Army and Allies would have died and that was a conservative estimate.

My father was in WWII as well, Naval gunner.

dropping that bomb probably saved his life.

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Carry it one step further! we wouldn't be here!

exactly!

My father fixed P-51s in England. More than likely, he would have been relocated with his squadron to Japan.

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A month before my father died of cancer he talked about the P-51,P-47,Spitefires and Mosquitoes coming in from England.The mortality rate of the fighter squadrons would have been unbelieveable escorting the bombers in and Scraffing runs on the way back. Triple A fire was estimated at bursts every 100' and twenty miles lenght at operating levels. The first wave of fighters where to remove Triple A threat with 100% mortality rate.

FWIW....
I'm angry at what happened at the start of WWII. But here's why my dislike for asians lives on.
I used to work for a volunteer donation blood bank in Dayton. We went to the Honda plant in Marysville, Ohio with a proposal for annual blood drives. Part of the presentation was that the plan could be considered part of their annual charitable donations. There were several of us there that day to represent the blood center. After hearing the portion regarding charitable donation, one of Honda's HR staff stood and stated that Honda already gave generously to ONE charity. She stated, "We give American's jobs so we can sell cars here. That is our charity." She then left the room.
That's what drives my dislike for the ever increasing asian arrogance.

"We give Americans jobs so we can sell cars here. That is our charity."

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Clearly these are numbers cooked up by people supporting dropping the bomb.

Even so, I still think I would choose the life of 200,000 innocent civilians over the lives of 650,000 volunteer soldiers.

It's misleading to imply there is any sort of consensus on the decision, there wasn't then among the military leaders then, and there isn't now.

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Volunteers? It was a different time then. People actually died to protect their home and family, to preserve freedom. Looking back at it now it was such a waste of good lives. Many of the pieces of shit we have parading as Americans today aren't really worth the effort.

Volunteers?

there was a thing called the draft back then.

Good point. Well once that happens, they're all implicated. Either answer the phone when your country wants you, or leave.

Kevin, future draft dodger

I totally understand peoples point of view on war! it is a terrble loss of life, only to kiss and makeup years later. Maybe the numbers were cooked and thats insignificant now, these young guys were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and do it willingly.
It is haunting to take another life in war up close and personnal! the saving grace for those of us that have done that is somebody has to do it and hope you will be forgiven in the end! Maybe thats why I teach! save some kid thats heading for dome if someone doesn't intervene.
My father was 19 when he began his horrific quest to survive and do his duty, I was 19 trying to make sense of it all.
I'm glad you made those comments Kevin! because you live in a free country you can do that. Every time I pick up a shirt and see that it was made in Vietnam it reminds me of the futility of war, how violent humans are and how many ancesters of the people making the shirt I eliminated from the face of this earth.

Vetron87 makes a good point.

My Grandfather fought in WWII. My father in Vietnam. Me in OIF and OEF. Futility is a damn good way to describe war. The things everyday folks like us do and survive in our lives to play in some politicans world power game....

My Grandfather hated the Japanese till the day the died in 1988. Everything Japanese he would have NOTHING to do with. Wouldn't buy it, drive it, ride in it, wear it ect.

My dad to this day can tell a Vietnamese person from a mile off. He turns around every time one of them opens their mouth from 20ft behind him... 30+yrs later and he still dosen't trust them. Its funny you mention their textile industy... I've seen my dad actually put a shirt back on the rack because it was "Made in Vietnam" and then pick out a different shirt that wasn't.

Grab a Snickers boys because I'm about to spill it and it's going to take some bandwidth.

I like to think I'm a bit more "tollerant" and open minded about things than my dad and grandad but I'm honestly not. I know most of these "enemies" are just regular people like me doing a job and that job is dictated by some clown in a business suit jibbering his way to stardom on TV every night in whatever shit hole country he is in charge of. I try to be objective but, I honestly don't trust Muslims. I'm paid in full to dislike them and I probally always will be. I can't trust anyone who really thinks that that moron in a business suit jibbering on the TV every night has the "will of god" in mind when he tells all Muslims to take up arms and kill me the infidel.... I can't rightly trust any moron in a business suit jibbering on TV actually.

It came to a head for me in 2007 when the same Govt that had me do my part to decimate the Iraqi military - wanted me to re-enlist for the "oportunity" (that's how it was pitched to me anyway) to now train the same SOB's that we didn't manage to kill back in 2003... There was no way I could do that. Your going to put me in a stack clearing houses with a guy that just 4yrs ago (hell maybe 4 days ago) was hiding in a different house waiting for me to break the door to that house down.... WTF is next?? I'm gonna go back to the Stan and pay off the former Taliban we couldn't manage to kill... or maybe send me back to Djibouti/Ethiopia/Somolia so I can show those scum bags how to fix the leaks on their "fishing boats" I shot up and sank in 2005.

People need to learn that in the world domination game other peoples are only your friends as long as your on top. That is the only commonality we have with these people. WTF do Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqi's ect have in common with Joe 6 pack USA or Ivan the drunk Ruski?? The answer is not a f'n thing. Our cultures are far too different and we are programed from birth according to our living area's. All you liberal thinkers out there like to say "we are all human" but it's not enough and it never will be. Weaker people eventually pick sides according to who looks the strongest. For years it was the USA and USSR. Now it's the USA and China and Russia.

Everybody is picking sides right now and all those little clowns in their business suits jibbering their BS on TV every night know it. They have no ideals except to expand their power over others. The constitution is a road block to every politican in the USA. Politicans would burn the thing in the street except citizens here are actually stupid enough to think it means something and would probally lay waste to the political establishment here if they were so blatent (for ONCE in history something politicans did to promote a "National Identy" backfired on future generations of politicans). So they lay in wait and slowly erode it thru it's purposely installed legal mis-givings. The UK wasn't so lucky as people there have been subjects for so long... why even bother. The workers party?? Come on... Not one politican in any comunist ruled land lives or workes like everyday people.

War is means for the political elite to expand or maintain their power over others. The regular people of the world just fight and deal with the horror, hate and the dissapointment of it.

I'll hate to demean anybodys service to their country because I then demean mine but I honestly believe that WWII was a potential jack pot of bounty for all the politicans involved. Too bad somebody's had to loose but that meant somebody's got to win. That scum bag FDR got elected to terms 3 and 4, Hitler got to dominate Europe for 7yrs, Tojo got to establish Japan as the ruler of the east for 10yrs, Churchill got to prop up the UK to it's pre revolutionary grandour for a few years, Stalin got to establish Russia as a force to be reckon with - made a huge power grab (with the help of scum bags FDR and Churchill) and with the establishment of the USSR assured a world domination game well into the next century....

Too bad those pesky daily duties of keeping people fed and housed and happy with their national identy eventually forced Britan fall from the fore front of the post WWII stage (and the same deal eventually brought Stalins entire USSR to it's knees). However the USA trotted along. We established bases in Japan to keep a closer eye our new enemies in China and N Korea... Had a grand old time in Korea playing north and south against Russia/China and gained/lost NOTHING but a bunch of good people. Same game in Vietnam until some clown decided to pull the plug. And when the Ruskies couldn't afford to play our little game anymore we f'n propped Russia up throughout the 1990's so it could once again be our enemy...

This Anniversary crap is a bunch of crap. Regular people died on both sides - for what? The regular people are the real losers here. We get left with a hate for another man/culture/ect and the serious mental baggage that ain't easy to put down, while some politicans on the winning side got what they wanted... Another day to call an "Anniversary" to some event in history that just propped them up one more notch.

By now every red blooded Joe 6 Pack in the USA is just screaming "love it or leave it" but really where would one go? It is the same shit different day in every little nook and crany of this entire big blue ball. The only Anniversary I look forward to celebrating these days is when any scumbag politican kicks the bucket. As for the rest of it, I'll let them celebrate their war and their rise to the top.
Will

Its called the BullShit factor Will. We are quick to I.D. BS when we hear it, see it and feel it. Makes no difference what war we fought we leave with the heighten sense of the BS. Boss's, clergy, adults, everybody has a line. Its what makes us shut down to outsiders. Been there done that. I was loathed by my own CO's and XO's because of my expertise and was known not to take any BS. My whole Team was treated like attack dogs. I have no remorse and still seat myself at a table in a resturant that faces a view of the front door. Its just the way it is Will.

War started with the first brothers, Cain and Abel. There will be no peace on earth till there is but one person standing. He will be the winner but he's gonna be one lonely motherf'er. It's all about culture, ideals, beliefs. No two people are the same. Cross a line they have drawn and you can bet on conflict. Domination has held dominions together but there is eventually revolt. Changes in leadership by death, election or overthrow will move the empire in a new direction against new and old foes. We're all just players in the game. Many times we can control our destiny within a society. Are you a patriot? Step over here. Are you against taking any action? Step over here. Are you an enemy of the state? Step over here. Each individual has his own personal views. I learned young to follow orders or suffer the consequences. Many times I did not agree with what I had to do but I did it without question. ( Alright, I'm lying, I questioned it a time or two.) We could fill 50 pages here and in the end it won't make a hell of a lot of difference. Somebody is going down. Our peacemakers have work to do until we spend the last dime we borrow. Some consider Americans pompous, arrogant bullies. Who's to say they are wrong? Back to the opening statement. I guess we can all blame this on women, afterall Eve had to screw it up for the rest of us.

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What does all this have to do with Hiroshima? Beats the shit outa me.

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Great, let's label and marginalize those who disagree with us. It's worked for generations.

FWIW, I don't see anything honorable about a draft. It's a last resort, basically forcing citizens to serve under threat of arrest because you can't pay people enough to sign up willingly. You end up with a good percentage of soldiers that really don't want to be there, which isn't great for morale.

There was a big difference between WWII and the later wars.

If they hadn't of done that the country, well all of the countries, would have been over run.

You wouldn't have had any place to go to.

What would you do the?

FWIW, I think the USA was content staying out of it until the attack on Pearl Harbor. So it's not like they were out to save the world at the time. But retaliation turned into world policing pretty quick. I think it also helped somewhat justify future involvement in other people's wars.

Your right on both counts.

It had to do indirectly with Nuclear weapons.

They couldn't fight each other directly, so they turned to 'policing' other nations. Each one trying to get another country in favor.

It's not cheap:

This is bound to make someones day.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100808/a ... vietnam_us_military_mates

Yea I know Tommy! Read it yesterday, nothing surprises me. Its OK! different time back in the day.

Wasn't the war about stopping the spread of communism?
Isn't that what this is about, only now the communist Chinese practically own us.

"Washington and Hanoi... to share civilian nuclear fuel and technology"

Oh yeah, we really need that top shelf Vietnamese military technology.

"...to agreeing that China needs to work with its neighbors to resolve territorial claims in the South China Sea."

I don't G.A.F.

"Washington's heightened interest in maintaining security and stability in the Asia-Pacific amid tensions following the sinking of a South Korean warship in March, which killed 46 sailors."

Sounds like a problem. Someone else's problem. Let them kill each other.

"Hillary Rodham Clinton also angered China by unexpectedly calling on the Communist powerhouse to resolve territorial claims with neighboring Southeast Asian countries over islands in the South China Sea."

Shut your trap bitch.

"The strategic implications and importance of the waters of the South China Sea and the freedom of navigation is vital to both Vietnam and the United States,"

Yeah, vital so that our Walmart freighters can sail through without harrassment.

"It is more important for Vietnam (and) its partners to establish that they have an equal right to economic prosperity and peace within the region as well."

They don't have any right to prosperity or peace if I have to pay for it.

"Chinese navy ships were seen shadowing the USS George Washington at a distance over the past several days as the supercarrier made its way throught the South China Sea along Vietnam's eastern coast"

Kinda like you'd shadow those teenage kids that loiter around your driveway at night?

"China claims the entire sea and the disputed Spratly and Paracel islands over which it exercises complete sovereignty. But Vietnam, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei and the Philippines also have staked claims on all or some of the territory"

You can't just stake a claim. Doesn't work that way, these aren't seats at a movie theatre. Back it up with bullets or bribes.

"Clinton announced that the U.S. has a national interest in seeing the claims resolved."

She might, I don't. Again, shut your trap.

"Vietnam does not support containing China, but like most other ASEAN members would like to see each major power offset the other," Carl Thayer, a Vietnam expert at the Australian Defense Force Academy in Canberra, said, referring to the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. "Quite simply, these are not too subtle signals that Vietnam wants the United States to stay engaged in the region to balance China."

Translastion. Vietnam wants the USA to wipe its ass for them.


"The formidable USS George Washington is a permanent presence in the Pacific, based in Japan. As one of the world's biggest warships, it is a floating city that can carry up to 70 aircraft, more than 5,000 sailors and aviators and about 4 million pounds (1.8 million kilograms) of bombs."

Sounds expensive.

"The supercarrier came to Vietnam following four days of high-profile military exercises last month with South Korea aimed at showing solidarity following the sinking of the 1,200-ton Cheonan navy ship. The drills enraged Pyongyang and drew repeated criticism from its Chinese ally."

And this is increasing our national security how?

"Congressional aides have said the agreement will likely not contain a no-enrichment pledge, which the U.S. promotes as the "gold standard" for civilian nuclear cooperation accords to ensure materials are not being used to build a nuclear weapon."

Sweet. Pissing off China and N Korea, and then nuclearizing Vietnam. War games at its best. Wheres the popcorn?

"Relations have thrived since the former foes shook hands in 1995. The U.S. is Vietnam's top export market and Americans are the country's No. 1 foreign investor. Two-way trade reached $15.4 billion in 2009."

Great two-way trade. In exchange for you letting us buying your shit, we'll send more money so you can make more shit.

"Military ties have also grown since the first U.S. warship ship visited Ho Chi Minh City in 2003, including high-level defense talks and training."

I'm gonna take a wild guess that the Vietnamese are training our guys. But maybe we can do the talks over teleconference next time.

more worried about Pakistan & India getting into it.

Before you say, good riddance, think about the fallout!