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| ultraviolet70 | HSR, what can it do | ||
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I've been a member here for over a year and a half but always been a lurker.
Considering the technical knowledge here I'm hoping to get some input. I've started a thread on TGO on this same subject so I'm just going to copy/paste some of the info/questions I posted over there. On TGO I'm not really getting any answers to what the HSR can support all I'm really hearing is use a single plane manifold. I know the single plane manifold can produce big numbers, but I would prefer to use a ported HSR and I want to know if it'll fill the bill. Here's the posts from TGO, I'll also put a link to the thread at the bottom of this post. "I'm having trouble finding solid info on the capabilities of the HSR. I know the HSR produced 2006 and later can opened to a Felpro 1206 and be ported to flow in excess of 300cfm, but I can't find any info that tells me how much.? So I guess what I want to know is how much can one these be opened up to flow? Whats the largest cubed engine you or you have heard of/seen the HSR sitting on? How much horsepower can the HSR support (no boost/no nitrous)? I know looking at the base of the HSR it strongly resembles a tunnel ram manifold, how close would the HSR perform to a tunnel ram? I can't find a dyno sim for the HSR but running a sim using the tunnel ram I can make huge power, which is what kind of spurred my interest." From another post "Here is the hypothetical build I'm looking at. Some serious worked over AFR 220cc heads, on a 427 short block with the appropiate cam. I know with a carburated tunnel ram I can make close to 700hp . What I'm trying to figure out is if a Stealth Ram properly prepped and worked over could feed a setup like this and make even close to the same power. I know with those horsepower levels and a tunnel ram drivability is going to be seriously compromised, I'm thinking with a fuel injection/a Stealth Ram and the tunability I could still make this drivable on the street (if the Stealth Ram can support these kind of numbers). " another post "Originally Posted by vetteoz Most of the big cube / big Hp guys are running modded single plane intakes with a 90 degree hat and monoblade I appreciate the reply, and do realize this, but.... If you run sims and analyze the flow characteristics of a tunnel ram manifold more power can be made running a tunnel ram than a single plane. Now I know a tunnel ram and a Stealth Ram are not he same, but the Stealth Ram is strongly modeled after a tunnel ram. I like the design of the Stealth Ram and really want to see what can be done with it. So with this thread I'm hoping to find examples of someone really testing the potential of this manifold and maybe I could match or maybe even exceed it. What I'm partially basing my curiousity on is if you search Holley's catalog. Part number 91406201 brings up a Stealth Ram package that includes 42lb injectors that can supposedly support up to 670hp. Here's a link at Jegs (Note in the blue box " 575-670 HP Range") or if you search that part number anywhere else you'll find the same info. http://www.jegs.com/p/Holley/Holley-...61888/10002/-1 Which if Holley rates this to support 670hp out of the box with 42lb injectors and a 58mm twin throttle body, I would think with the right injectors, the right porting and a monoblade throttle body it should be able to support 670hp plus (that being if Holley's ratings are accurate). Just thowing out what info I'm coming up with and seeing what feedback I get. Again I value all info and opinions, please feel free to toss out thre what you've got." I know this is a long read, and I really appreciate those that have taken the time to read it and thanks in advance for any info/replys you can give |
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Posted on: 2009/8/30 1:26
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| 383tpimachine | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Ill be putting a port matched HSR from USM with the air gap on a 383 with Dart iron eagles.
My next build will be either a 400 (Dart) long block all forged with AFR 195cc competition heads. With my 383 Im hoping for 450 as my heads only flow 250cfm at .550 lift. Im sure with a 427 and a nice solid cam 700hp is possible |
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Posted on: 2009/8/30 3:09
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1985 Atomic Orange 400YSIT56-Racecar build 1970 El Camino-Awaiting LSX |
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| ultraviolet70 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Quote:
And you think a properly prepped HSR could feed a 700hp 427. I wouldn't need it to be a modified intake to clear the C4 hood, because when I build this engine it won't be for the Vette, I'm sure I'll leave the 385 in the Vette. Thanks for the reply and I hope to get some more. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/30 4:07
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| Matatk | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Hey Dane, welcome aboard! Glad you decided to come by and post. No help for you on the intake, sorry. But we have a few members who have run various intakes, including single planes, who should chime in eventually.
What's this 427 build gonna go in? And a little off topic, how's the 383 (apparently 385 now?) build coming? Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/8/30 11:41
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2002 EBM convertible, Magnusson supercharger, cam, headers, etc. 1989 Corvette...RIP |
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| anesthes | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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The HSR topic has been beaten to death at TGO.
If you want something to support 700HP naturally aspirated, you want a pro-ram singleplane, 1206 port, with a big throttle body and an appropriate air cleaner. Horizontal draw intakes are great for small tight packaging under the hood, not so great for even airflow distribution. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/8/30 14:38
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'79 Z28. 412 CID, NP 833 transmission, 3.73 10.5" rear end. |
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| Vettrock | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Hi, I'm running a SR base with a tunnel ram top on my '87. I don't have any flow or dyno numbers. But I know what it does on the dragstrip. It's a 385sbc with AFR 210 raceready heads and a sloid roller cam. 252 int 262 ext @.050 .627 int .631 ext lift. It will run 10.50's at 127mph at 102' temp and 5300' DA. The car weighs 2875 with me in it. Based on those figures the motor makes around 600hp. It pulles hard thru 7000 rpm. This combo works well for me and I'm happy with the results.
Doug [img width=300]  [/img][img width=300] [/img] |
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Posted on: 2009/8/31 18:52
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1987 Silver Couple, 9.95 @ 138 mph on the bottle. Too many mods to list. 1998 Red Convertible, my daily driver. Pure stock. |
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| BrianCunningham | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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This is my tuner's car
run's 10's on the engine. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-te ... 2196104-398-85-build.html [QUOTE]SloRvette: Finally got a car put together for myself.:willy: [IMG]http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/p8638/P1010044.jpg[/IMG] 12:1 4.040 bore GM 4 bolt 1 piece rear main seal truck block, Eagle 3.875" stroke crank, Eagle 6" rods, Ross pistons - Calico coatings turbo top, anti fricton sides, Canfield heads ported to 215 cc - intake flows 317 @ .700" lift, ported StealthRam - heads flowed the number with intake attached, injectors rolled over for direct port dry nitrous, custom plenum with Accufab Lightning Monblade throttlebody, solid roller cam 242/250 @ .050" .672" gross intake lift .688" gross exhaust lift, Comp solid roller lifters with high pressure roller oiling, custom 3" stainless exhaust, Hooker 2151 headers, FAST XFI, 60 lb injectors, Walbro 340 pump feeding Bosch 044 pump [IMG]http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/p8638/P1010040.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/p8638/P1010042.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] |
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Posted on: 2009/8/31 18:57
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| dan0617 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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I have a HSR on my 383, 230/236 cammed, AFR 195 street ported engine. Has run bottom 12's and I'm sure will hit top 11's on motor. It's set up for the spray (tight converter and short shifts on motor) otherwise I think it would be mid 11's on motor. It has gone a best of 10.66 @ 131 on the spray but will do much better next time out as I fixed quite a few issues and tuned it in better.
I love my HSR. However I'm not sure it will be good for a large cubed, high revving engine. Plenum volume is pretty small, especially when cut down to fit in a 'vette. I actually milled 3/8" off of the top of the runners on the base intake so the plenum volume stayed a hair bigger. I love it but I don't think I'd do it on anything over 400 ci, I think other options would be better. Maybe they can be ported out quite a bit and make them more optimal for bigger cubes, that I don't know. Edit: by the looks of the post before mine, I'd say the Stealthram can be ported enough for a large cubed engine! |
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Posted on: 2009/9/1 1:09
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| ultraviolet70 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Thanks for the replys guys.
Sounds like when I build the 427 it'll be easiest to go with a single plane. Anymore input or thoughts (critical or not) please feel free to throw them out. Matatk, Thanks The 385 (4.040 bore creates a 385 I originally thought it was only 4.030 hence the 383) in the Vette is coming along well I actually tinkered a little on it tonight and I think I'm completely done underneath the car and should be able to lower it down and get the top together. Hopefully it'll be blowin' smoke within the next couple of weeks. The 427 doesn't have a home yet, I'd really like to buld a 94-95, fullsize, 2wd, reg. cab, short bed GMC or Chevy truck. Something like this is what I have in mind http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SHARP- ... 219&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245 I figure once the Vette is running I'll want another project and I figure the cost just to build the 427 will keep me occupied for awhile and an engine stand in the garage doesn't take up nearly as much room as a whole vehicle. I got a great deal on a set of heads that I couldn't pass up so that's what kinda spurred the whole idea for the 427. It'll probably be some time before I even start this, but I'm trying to put this together on paper to see what's possible. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/1 1:57
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| vetteoz | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Nice .
Just gave me a new idea. Is that just a regular Holley /Weiand tunnel ram top? Quote:
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Posted on: 2009/9/1 4:40
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| Vettrock | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Hi, yes it's just a Weiand top, part number 1932.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Weiand/925/1932/10002/-1 [quote] vetteoz wrote: Nice . Just gave me a new idea. Is that just a regular Holley /Weiand tunnel ram top? [quote] |
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Posted on: 2009/9/1 8:45
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1987 Silver Couple, 9.95 @ 138 mph on the bottle. Too many mods to list. 1998 Red Convertible, my daily driver. Pure stock. |
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| BeachBum | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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You ask good questions in your post, in which I too have searched for more information on the HSR, particuarily on big cube sbc applications.... I have come up empty though. I think there are a few 383's running them..... Thus, I rely on my own intuition on the intake, and I think its a good intake that can make very good power, while maintaining decent mid-range torque.... even on a big cube 420+ sbc. I would guess, with good cylinder heads 11-1 cr, 427 sbc and a hyd roller cam in that 242-246 area, I think it could make 570-590 HP and 540 ftlbs of torque in at 4500 and 6000 rpm...... But, that is guesswork. If I ever find one that will fit under the hood and the owner will let me borrow for a week or two, I'll find out how it compares against the MR. I'll do the same for a efi SP as well. Could be interesting before and after A-B-A tests. Please share anything you discover on the intake in the future as far as big cube performance. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/1 22:17
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| RedGut86 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Isn't LD85 (his CF handle, I think he is on here too) running a HSR on a 406?
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Posted on: 2009/9/1 23:41
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| ultraviolet70 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Thanks Beachbum. I know as Anesthes says there are alot of threads on TGO (and believe me after all the research I've done I know he's right), but I wouldn't say it's been beat to death otherwise these questions would have had answers and I wouldn't have started threads on it (I did numerous searches, not only on TGO but all over and couldn't find definitive answers, if anyone can, please feel free to post links). I've been doing some more research and what I've come up with is it isn't so much a plenum volume issue (as you can see with the carb style top feed plenum Vettrock is using there is actually less plenum volume his than with the traditional style Strealth Ram plenum). I have a friend that is playing with a cad program the can simulate flow characteristics (it's a bit basic but makes sense) and the biggest problem (as many have mentioned) is with the front feed plenum the rear cyl end up rich due to the front cyl being able to pull the nec airflow before it reaches the back of the plenum. Reshaping the plenum changed the airflow and can solve the problem but the hood clearance problem is even worse as the front of the plenum height has to be raised significantl. Even though I'm not planning this for the Vette it is going to take a front feed plenum that sits awfully high in the front, almost as tall as a top feed intake and once I'd factor in the cost of a one off hand made and most likely gaudy plenum I might as well plan on the single plane. I'd still love to figure out how to make a Stealth Ram work on this future build, but the cost and complexity is making me lean more and more towards planing this around a fuel injected single plane. Guys, please, all input is valued and welcome. Have a good night Thanks |
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Posted on: 2009/9/2 3:59
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| dan0617 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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The uneven cylinder distributon problem exists with all front loading intakes, including the stock TPI. Shows up more and more the more you flow and the higher you rev and the more power you make. On my Stealthram, on the top of the runners where they meet the plenum, I ported and smoothed out the fronts quite a bit, the mid ones a little, and the rear ones none. My problem was opposite what you found. At WOT while spraying, my rear plugs were leaner than the fronts. Actually when I was lean and the plug range was too hot, the front spark plugs blistered a little, the mid ones melted the ground straps, and the rear ones were completely melted along with the exhaust valve.
I have found during very light throttle driving the fronts run a hair leaner but not too bad. Now with the porting the way I did the WOT on the spray looks pretty even. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/2 13:48
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| BeachBum | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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I'd like to see a 383 take the HSR to 7000-7200 rpm on a dyno with the appropriate cam.... that would tell me a lot about what happens above 6500 rpm with it... would help tell what would also happen with big cube motors as well.
Yeap, agree on the front loading intakes....not much you can do about it. I know the MR gets grief for it. I will say, I do not hear much about the LT-1 and LT-4's having air distribution problems, so maybe GM did something right with those intakes. I dunno.  I'll also add that my Superram never had a problem.... but perhaps because I kept it at 6000 rpm, or maybe LPE got that plenum design right.... don't know on that either, but I read and changed dozens of plugs on that motor over the years and each cylinder was identical to the next. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/2 17:41
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| tpi421vett | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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I have heard that going to sequential fuel injection vs batch fire helps bigtime on a LTX/Miniram type engines! I know Dan @ White Racing, and he has checked exhaust temp with batchfire vs sequential at idle, and with batchfire there are differences between cylinders. With sequential all the cylinders were real close to the same. And 94 on up LTX motors from GM have sequential fuel injection on them.
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Posted on: 2009/9/3 6:04
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AFR Dealer, can sell at prices too low to advertise. 801-953-6391 08 C6 LS3,3LT,Z51,A6,NPP 91 vette,450ci, AFR 220, miniram,FAST, Crane 252/260 solid roller, 200 shot nos, ZF6, 4 link, 9", DA corrected to 1300 ft 9.65@145.xx 450ci now with AFR 235... |
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| RedGut86 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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I had posted a new thread, as to not take it too much off topic. But it looks on topic now. I am just curious as to how bad the air distribution difference is between front and rear ports? I mean, and this may be advertising, but Edelbrock says they make 15-20hp more on their tunnel ram front fed intake over their single plane style intake everytime. Perhaps the air distribution issues are not as bad as the single plane can have similar issues with pulse interference in the common small plenum (at least it can with carbs.)
I'd think all manifolds have some issues. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/4 16:32
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| ultraviolet70 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Quote:
Doug I like your set-up, you've really got me thinking (which I generally try to avoid, don't want to hurt myself). Do you remeber off the top of your head what CFM you throttle boy is rated at? I would imagine with a center top feed throttle body like this would cure the distrubution problems?. What type of air filter set-up are you running, and with it on how tall is your set up (what height cowl hood are you having to run)? Is that 10.50 @ 127mph at 5300ft @ 102 deg corrected or is that what it truly ran? If that's what it really ran I'd love to see what it'd run here (about 700ft) on a 70 deg day, I'd bet that would translate into more than 600hp. Thanks for your input Doug, hope this isn't to many questions. Dane Thanks to all for their replys |
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Posted on: 2009/9/6 6:39
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| vetteoz | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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How big a cam to spin those revs with Josh's TFS heads? 243/252 .600 lift enough? At present mine goes to limiter set @ 6500 easy with ZZ409 cam 224/.550 with out of the box TFS 195's on a marginal tune. Some one do me a tune and I will try it? |
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Posted on: 2009/9/6 8:51
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| pr0zac | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Posted on: 2009/9/6 20:52
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| vetteoz | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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pr0zac wrote:what? Which what? |
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Posted on: 2009/9/7 1:06
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| Vettrock | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Ok, I'm back from the track. 1) Yes the center feed tunnelram did correct the fuel distrubution problem. The front and back plugs look the same. 2)The throttlebody is a 1000cfm Holley unit but I've seen flow numbers on this TB with good heads and it flows close to 1200cfm's. 3)No airfilter, I like living on the edge. 4)With a 3" cowl hood it onlt has 1.5" of clearance. Could explain the no aircleaner. 5)Those numbers are what I ran. I'd love to see a DA of less then 1000'. I can only dream. Glad I could help. Doug. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/8 2:44
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1987 Silver Couple, 9.95 @ 138 mph on the bottle. Too many mods to list. 1998 Red Convertible, my daily driver. Pure stock. |
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| Vettrock | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Here's a picture of the TB and hood.
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Posted on: 2009/9/8 2:48
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1987 Silver Couple, 9.95 @ 138 mph on the bottle. Too many mods to list. 1998 Red Convertible, my daily driver. Pure stock. |
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| ultraviolet70 | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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Doug
Thanks fo the info and pics. I would love to see that thing hear at Gateway with good weather. You ever get a wild hair up your ass you've a got place to stay if you want to see what it'll do here. Let's see, add an air cleaner you'd only need an 8" cowl hood or just glue a laundry basket (be about the same height) over the big hole. (obviously I'm joking, your car looks badazz) I still think this is the setup I'm really going to lean towards now after hearing your results. Luckily it's not going into a C4, I'm thinking maybe an S-10 which I know with this intake and air filter in an S-10 even, it will still require a huge cowl hood, but these are all still future decisions. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/8 4:42
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| BrianCunningham | Re: HSR, what can it do | ||
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One way to get more plenum volume with a front breather
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Posted on: 2009/9/8 15:00
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_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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