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jsup | Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Soon I will have the basics done. The motor tuned, the trans in place, etc..
I am going to install the new rear in April, along with the Blowerworks suspension upgrade. Road racing seems like fun, I'd like to give it a shot. How much has to be done to a base C4 coupe to be ready to go? I'm thinking Urethane bushings, everywhere, brakes, tires. Do I need much else? Is a roll cage required? What do they cost, how hard are they to install? Can they be unobtrusive? I'm talking basics, not perfection. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 17:48
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CentralCoaster | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Cage isn't required unless you're actually racing wheel to wheel.
I would normally say just tighten the bolts, and go race, but in your case you may need to upgrade the brakes. What does the car have on it right now? AutoX won't overheat your brakes, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to autoX a 600HP car. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 17:57
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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OK, I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff so feel free to talk to me like one. I have the stock brakes on my 90. I know I'll have to upgrade. The reason I haven't yet is two fold. 1. cost, about $1200, and 2. I don't know if the new calipers will fit under my stock rims. I'd like to keep the stock rims, to keep the stock look. If I have to get rims when I do brakes, probably means I need tires, then it's money money money... Now, as to the comment "AutoX won't overheat your brakes, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to autoX a 600HP car" can you explain why you say that. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 18:02
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CentralCoaster | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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AutoX will help you learn the car and force you to learn good throttle control, but it seems to me like putting a bull in a china shop. It's only a lap at a time, so you never really have a chance to overheat the brakes (or have fun.)
I think roadracing is easier on the car, assuming you don't overheat your fluids. If you have the base 12" brakes, they definitely need to go. They were designed for a 250HP car for aggressive street use. They can be overcooked on a track even with a stock motor, and you'll have much higher corner entry speeds than that. Also a beginner driver will use up the brakes more. The first question is what are you willing to spend? You could probably go pretty far on C5 fronts with high temp pads front and rear and a $12 DRM spring. Also the 88+ ABS cars seem to have endemic problems with not getting enough pressure to the rear brakes. I don't know if it due to something failing in the ABS or what, but most people start throwing new parts at it and don't fix the problems. It's akin to putting new running shoes on a guy with a bum knee. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 18:18
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CentralCoaster | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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What does this Blowerworks suspension upgrade consist of?
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 18:22
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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All eight rear links, aluminum, with Heim joint adjustability, Urethane bushings, and something for up front I need to get my hands on to explain. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 18:25
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Would a new bias spring help the rear braking issue? What is a DRM spring? Doug Rippie Motorsports? What I'm willing to spend is what it takes to do right. What you suggest is in the budget for next spring, however, if I can't get the C5 brakes under my rims, that's going to set the whole thing back. Brakes are next on my list after I get the rear in, in April. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 18:28
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gkmccready | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Call Randy @ Doug Rippie Motorsports.
Do you want to do a track day or High Performance Driving Event? This is where you go out, drive the track, don't collect times, and don't race folks. That's where I'd recommend starting. There you don't need a cage. You can even do some time trials, against the clock, but not wheel to wheel without the safety equipment. If you want to go wheel to wheel, you need a cage and a tonne of other safety gear. And a lot of money, a tow vehicle, a trailer, etc, etc. Check out www.nasaproracing.com ... |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 19:35
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cuisinartvette | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Guess if youre into auto-x you wont care how much/little power it has but like CC said I dont see how you can manage or even use a ton of power on a tight course like that. Guess if you can get it to stay glued...
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 19:42
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Jeffvette | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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You're pissing your money away.
Get seat time, more seat time and finally more seat time. Then as your skills progress, start upgrading. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 20:22
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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There are some things I need to do anyway. Rear, brakes... I wanted to know how cheaply this could be done, just to try it once or twice to see how I like it. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 21:57
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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I just wanted to try it once or twice to see if I like it. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 21:58
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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What Jeff said.
You don't need to spend any money for your first couple of track days EXCEPT on safety equipment. Right now that's a decent helmit ( see if you can borrow one from a buddy). Gloves help. At first, you don't need upgraded brakes or competition seatbelts. First, check every suspension and steering nut and bolt. Then put in new brake fluid with at least 400 degree boiling point. Tires Good?- you're ready. First day - learn the lines (a high percentage of intermediate and advanced HPDE drivers don't know the racing lines), don't try and brake deep into the corners but rock & roll that HP on the straights. By then, you'll see that the 12inch brakes are margional but they work well enough for your first couple of track days. Run another day before spending upgrade money. The best money you can spend on the second day would be to hire an instructor that will be in the car every session. It will drop your lap times faster than any machanical upgrade. C5 brakes are the best bang for the bucks but they won't fit under your stock wheels. Used C5 wheels for your track day tires would be the least expensive. The Doug R bias spring is very necessary. A cage isn't necessary especially for the street but a rear rollbar would make me more comfortable and be a place to attach comp belts. Gary may make a hardbar for C4's to mount the belts. Comp belts with the stock seats is questionable because the belts have to wrap around the seat and may be too wide at the shoulders. Maybe Jeff, Jon (Spectator) or Brian C. have tried it. Jeff & Jon know a bunch about full cages but on the street, their a real pain in the ass. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/27 22:11
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CentralCoaster | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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I guarantee you'll overheat those 12" brakes on your first track day. Regardless, assuming you have good fluid, the pads will overheat first, and give you a little bit of warning before they fade entirely, so be aware of it, they don't really come back until the car has a chance to cool down. You can adjust your driving accordingly on the later sessions.
The bias spring will mean a little less work for the front brakes, which is good. Auto-X just abuses the car and tears up wheel bearings. Brian Cunningham can probably attest to that. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 0:11
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Should I do the bias spring no matter what I do? |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 0:12
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CentralCoaster | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Yes. Do it when you flush the brake fluid.
If you need new pads anyways, you can put some high temp ones on. Hawk should have various race compounds that will fit your stock calipers, some are more friendly than others on the street, or else there's always HP+. I'm running Hawk Blacks on the rear stock brakes and Wilwood BP10 up front. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 0:13
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Sounds like to do this continuously requires modifying my car more than I really want to.
I really don't want to run a full cage, five point harness, buy another set of tires and rims, and beat the living shit out of the suspension. Well, right now anyway... However, it sounds like with the mods I was going to make anyway, are necessary. What I'll probably wind up doing is the mods I was going to do, up to the brakes, by the end of next season. I would like to give it a run for fun just to see if I like it. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 1:08
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SpectatorRacing | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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My suggestion to you is to try it before you make any more modifications (except front brake pads). You will know very quickly if it's for you or not. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you will love it.
Of the 20 or so friends I've brought to the track every one of them has loved it, with about half sticking with it or even buying the requisite track-only car to keep doing it. The rest don't go regularly simply because it's VERY expensive. Only one guy didn't go again because he didn't enjoy it, he was simply too nervous out there. You don't sound like you're going to be that guy. The more performance modifications you do to your car the harder it will be for you to become a good driver. Big brakes and lots of HP can mask a LOT of weak techniques. Carrying speed through the corner is what makes lap times better. With the amount of power you are making I'd be concerned with your cooling system. Have you done any upgrades? My biggest mistake was when I added a nice top end to my stock LT1 but didn't add any capability to the stock cooling system. First day on the track (cool April temps) I cooked the oil and fried the bearings. If you're going to do brakes anyway then I'm sure you'll be thankful. I've never run stock C4 brakes, but I know they are a weak point. I can't comment as to whether you would cook them on your first ever track day. It seems unlikely, but Kevin may be right. I know the C5 brakes are fine, C5 Z06 brakes would be ideal, but you've already seen that they won't fit under you stock wheels. If you decide you are going to do this a few times a year (or more) then there is a whole list of items I would suggest, a harness bar and harnesses being the first. But again, you can't use these with stock seats, so you're looking at spending some coin. But I agree 100% with Jeff. If you try this, decide you like it, and do it often, the best thing you can possibly spend your money on is time behind the wheel. I have sooo many students that bring their modified cars to the track and get passed by econoboxes with better drivers. And I am always amazed that the first thing out of their mouth is that they need a bigger this or better that, never that they need to work on driving skill. And lastly, the percentage of modified cars that break at driving events is waaaaay higher than that of stock ones... |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 2:25
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Spector, thanks.
It's sounding like I am going to dabble a bit. I spent a ton of money on this car this year, so I'll just see if I enjoy it first. I intend to do the rear, suspension with poly bushings, and brakes regardless. Sounds like I'll need that anyway. Once I get that stuff done I'll dabble a bit and see how I like it, then from there I'll decide about the seats, harness, and roll cage. I do think I'd enjoy it, as you mentioned, I'm hardly the type to be intimidated on the course, in fact, believe it or not I would probably be a little aggressive. My pre conceived notions were a bit off, I thought there would be more suspension mods. Now at least I have an idea.....thanks all. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 2:59
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Aardwolf | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Stock brakes, race pads, and lots of air on this 300+ HP minirammed racer:
[IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/RA911.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/RA911d.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o130/Aardwolfki/brakeduct.jpg[/IMG] You need a helmet, track pads on the front and racing brake fluid, then cooling ducts if you'd like to push it. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 3:10
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Yep, that's why hiring a good instructor for one of your first 5 or so events is money well spent. So many guys that I work with tell me that in their previous HPDE's: I got an instructor for one session, I got an instructot that didn't say anything and didn't do a debrief, I had 3 different instructors that told me different things,etc. Working with one person thru 6 or 8 sessions makes a big difference. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 14:43
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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If you're going to change brake pads AND you just want to try one track day without having to change out race pads (or not use them again if you don't like track days), I'd suggest putting on Hawk HPS, High Performance Street.
When I switched to them, the difference was huge. Their great on the street and very rotor friendly. HP+ pads are a little better but may squeel and they are slightly harder on the rotors (Per Hawk). Clean up the rotors with a 2 or 3 inch scotchbrite and your drill. Bed the pads per the instructions on the Hawk box. I'd recommend these pads even if you don't go to the track. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 14:50
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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I've run Hawk Blacks for years on my FF and raelly like them. Have you got back on the track since you did the rear suspension? And, was there any noticeable difference? |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 14:54
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Aardwolf | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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I like to really brake late and have past many cars from time made in the braking zone. Those pads above I have had terrible fade on. DTC-70 would be excellent in a Hawk pad. I hate being limited by the pad. HPS faded in two laps for me.
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 15:19
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Thanks guys. Now I found out I'll need to look into brake cooling too.
I'm not real keen on taking out the stock seats and putting in five point harness...perhaps this one is outside my budget, and desire for the car. But I will still get out there and try it, I may not have the best equipment for the job, but I'll dabble. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 17:26
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gkmccready | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Quote:
I'm not real keen on taking out the stock seats and putting in five point harness... You don't need to do that for track days, or HPDE, or even some time trials (see: NASA). You will need to do that if you're talking wheel-to-wheel racing. For a nice, safe, first track day, find a local HPDE organization that provides novice drivers instructors. Put fresh brake fluid in, maybe a set of fresh pads, and go out, go what feels to be slow and gentle, and get an idea of what it's like. You don't need to bomb down the straights and fly through the corners to see what it's like. Also, some organizations are willing to rent you a car, like a Spec Miata, to go out a use so you can try without any work on your car at all... just remember, nobody is turning Michael Schumacher times their first event. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 17:59
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BrianCunningham | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 18:50
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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The first time you did a track event? |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 21:21
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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You don't need the cooling for your first couple of events. IF and that's a big IF, you decide to continue doing events and want to put in a harness and seats. They can be mounted so that the swap from your stock seats to your race seats takes 10 minutes. Used race seats are inexpensive. Just do the fluid, pads, check your fasteners and tires and do an event. You can worry about all the rest if you decide you like it. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 21:33
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Brian, I question the spacing between the belts on the bar and where they go around the seats. It's very wide, enough that it's possible for your shoulders to slip out of the belts in a heavy frontal impact. Most belts I work with have a 10 inch spacing on their centerline where they're mounted. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 21:43
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Jeffvette | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Bingo. You would fail tech at any event worth a grain of salt. JSUP, just forget what everybody has said, go out and try it. You don't need to do anything to your car. Just go out and drive and see if it's for you. All these upgrades people are talking about are if you want to run at 8-9/10th at the track. Your brakes will be fine as long as you are not riding them or overusing them, your rad should be fine, and your stock 3 point belts are fine as well. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 22:21
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pr0zac | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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dude, pocono does track days for like $250 a day. i was going to go last year but the guy that i was going to go with blew his motor. i was trying to get my friend who has an m3 to go but i think he is scared of getting shown up.lol. i would be more than willing to do that with you. i have a z51 car with j55 brakes.
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 22:29
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Hummm, I ran Pocono but it was on 2 wheels.
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 0:58
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Yea, hell half of the first time guys that show up when I instruct haven't even thought about checking their pressure. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 1:01
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BrianCunningham | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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I haven't failed tech yet.
You can put in a chest latch to keep them together. You could also put the neccessary holes into the stock seats. Your 1st couple of events, they may let you run your stock belts. Or you could rent a track car with fullcage in it. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 1:43
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Aardwolf | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Yes, cooked the HPS in two laps. My instructor asked why I was exiting already LOL took the turn 5 run off at Road America. Slowed enough to make the tire chicane. I've seen people go realllly slow their first times so you could do that if you wanted to. After finding how much use the pad would take then I had to coast, reduce top speed, brake way earlier, all things I hate and are no fun to me. Well a little fun to learn the limit of the pad. It's pretty shocking your first time to go for the brakes and the car isn't slowing down. So I recomend track pads! I hope your auto trans doesn't over heat. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 2:09
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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OK. It also depends where you're running. And I wouldn't think it would be a big deal for auto-x. If you put on the chest, you will fail SCCA tech. Single point release required. I seen the holes put in the stock seats, some of those were really nice work. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 13:13
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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It's rare that someone uses their brakes like that in their first event, maybe 2 or 3% of the drivers and that's OK. But some of those 3% have to be told to slow down because they're basically out of control, not hitting the apexes or the lines. A few do get it right, hit the lines and use their brakes hard, very few. Most don't and I'd much rather see guys concentrating on lines, consistant brake points, etc. on their first time out. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 13:22
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jsup | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Done. We'll set it up. In the spring. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 14:21
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ghoffman | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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[/quote]
Most don't and I'd much rather see guys concentrating on lines, consistant brake points, etc. on their first time out.[/quote] I totally agree. You could be driving a first class C6ZO6 with Penske coil overs, big brakes and Hoosiers and will get smoked by Miatas and Rabbits until you learn how do do this sport. It is really a matter of practice just like anything else. Where are you located? If you can go to Pocono, you seem to be in the NE. If you can get to NHMS, I would be happy to help you. Check out www.scda1.com for next years' schedule. Cheers, Gary Hoffman Hardbarusa.com |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 14:22
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Aardwolf | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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Wow that's a large % that go slow. Interesting! My worst offense was abrupt steering inputs.
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 18:08
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SpectatorRacing | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
Elite Guru
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Most first time students do very well as long as you stay calm. Most of the mistakes come when they see their buddy in front of them or coming up behind and try to drive faster. Inevitably they end up overdriving the car and running slower...smooth is fast. It's cliche' and waaay overused, but dammit, it's true.
Brake cooling ducts are overrated. They're another easy, cheap mod that people put on their cars so they can impress their friends with their "race car". Most of them are done wrongly, anyway. Unless you're running 9/10ths+ you don't need them. I ran Hawk HP+ pads on my M3 (street car) and they were decent on track but horrible for the street. Don't get these unless you're going to change them in and out for track use, and in this case I'd go with something better. I put Porterfield R4-S pads (similar to HPS) on the car just before i got rid of it, and they were OK. They weren't great track pads, but they were safe and did not fade, they just required a longer stopping distance. A longer pedal does not always mean brake fade, but people usually assume it does. Brake fade is when you push hard and the car does not slow down, usually due to boiled fluid or a pad that's overheated. A longer pedal is fine if it's still stopping the car - most street cars will get a long pedal after a few hot laps, you just have to adjust. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 20:40
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SpectatorRacing | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
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ABSOLUTELY do NOT use 5 or 6 point racing harnesses with stock C4 seats on a high speed track. I don't care who you know that's passed tech with this set-up, it is not safe. If you hit something head on the belts will slide right off your shoulders and you'll go for a nice ride through the windshield.
Don't become one of the idiots that tries to "sneak one by" the tech inspector. He's not trying to ruin your fun, he's trying to keep you alive. You win nothing if you get on track with unsafe equipment, and guess who loses when you have an incident - I'll give you a hint, it's not the tech guy you fooled. Take it from a guy who's been straight into a wall at 75 mph, been on fire at 125 mph, flipped a car in the air, been backward through the trees, etc. and has never had anything more than a stiff neck. Your safety is the most important thing you can spend money on. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/29 20:49
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
The Stig Moderator
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Sounds like you did fairly well on your first outting. I'd rather have a new guy go slower, listen to my inputs and learn the correct lines than someone who'e trying to go really fast and doing everything wrong or trying to impress the instructor with his "skills". Those are the guys who get pulled in for a little discussion. It's pretty rare. In 8 years, including working at a driving school, I've only refused to ride with 2 people. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/30 1:17
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Every man dies but not every man lives. |
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BillH | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
The Stig Moderator
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It's even more "fun" whe you're upside down, at 100+, 8 feet above the track. You can watch the asphalt COMING TO MEET YA ! I walked away from that because of good safety equipment. It was interesting to note that the combination of shoulder belts and my neck stretched 3 inches on impact and my helmit hit the asphalt. The car didn't do so well. |
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Posted on: 2008/11/30 1:26
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Every man dies but not every man lives. |
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bogus | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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The charm of road racing is that you can practice on your way to and from work. It's all about car control.
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Posted on: 2008/11/30 21:25
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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ghoffman | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
Senior Guru
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Here is what my 2000 FRC looked like after a cut RR Hoosier put me into T3 at Loudon.
[IMG]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/gshoffman/Rightside.jpg[/IMG] I really liked that car before I crunched it: [IMG]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/gshoffman/P7160003.jpg[/IMG] and here is what a Hardbar customer did to his C5 at about 100MPH. With the Teamtech Rampac, it does not fall off of your shoulders because of the unique design. We both walked away unhurt, and there are many other examples. [IMG]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/gshoffman/Opps2.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2008/11/30 22:06
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Aardwolf | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
Senior Guru
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I can report a very nice difference after adding brake ducts. They helped the pads fade much less. I don't always have extreme high temp pads since I sometimes pick up used pads.
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Posted on: 2008/12/1 1:21
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CentralCoaster | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
Senior Guru
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Not yet. Still working on making my excuse list shorter than my "reasons to go" list. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/1 17:49
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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CentralCoaster | Re: Questoins about road racing/autocrossing.... | ||
Senior Guru
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Well, how hot the pads get in the first place all depends on what brakes you have. I guess you can put the best pad on the smallest rotor, which can probably take you pretty far until you can't keep the fluid from boiling or bearings from melting or the car from being undriveable on the street. I like getting the most out of a part before replacing it, but in the case of brakes, the deal was too good to pass up. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/1 17:59
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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