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| SpectatorRacing | Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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Anyone have a hookup or suggestion where to get high quality rod ends for racing applications?
They're $30-50 everywhere I look (Summit, VBP, etc). I need 3/4" thread, 0.50 bore. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/17 18:07
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| Jeffvette | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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I've got a local nut/bolt shop that has all sorts of rod ends. There are a few places online as well. www.mcmaster.com
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Posted on: 2008/1/17 18:35
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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I've got a local nut/bolt shop that has all sorts of rod ends. There are a few places online as well. www.mcmaster.com That's a great link, they have millions. The question is what type do I need - High strength, ultra high strength, or ultra high strength oversized? Good lord. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/17 21:19
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| BrianCunningham | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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[url]www.colemanracing.com[/url]
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Posted on: 2008/1/17 22:50
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_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Quote: I was wondering exactly the same. How do their prices compare to what you're getting? Which ones match up? Also, what are you guys using for the tubing? What alloy, what wall thickness? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 2:45
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| Notorious | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Check out some hot rod/street rod specific vendors too. These are widely used in that segment of the aftermarket.
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 3:02
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| cuisinartvette | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Was wondering the same thing....
I bought some tubing trying to make these that connect the front lower control arm mounts and the uppers. I have the smaller pieces cut but the angles are a pain and Im not good at this stuff yet. http://store.summitracing.com/partdet ... =700+115&autoview=sku http://store.summitracing.com/instruc ... D1401%5F1402%5F1403%2Epdf (click on link then clikc on pic to expand) but could I use some rod ends and a threaded pipe and get the same effect so Im not using a longer bolt and putting stress on that ? I know Osh carries some rod ends. Im thinking something can be made for less rather than blowing $140 on somethign Ill never see. . |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 3:31
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Is it recommended to weld in some threaded ends like these, or just cut threads directly into the tubing?
I guess this allows you to run larger, thinner, lighter, stronger tubing, right? [web]http://www.mcmaster.com/param/asp/PSearch2.asp?reqTyp=parametric&act=psearch&FAM=threaded&FT_247=256617&FT_294=253395&FT_6356=253480&FT_6359=253416&FT_138=10075&FT_101=5458&FT_2044=133550&FT_104=4054&FT_161=1451&FT_518=52165&FT_6179=249697&ppe=2&session=desc=Threaded%20Tube%20Ends;threaded,518=52165,101=5458,2044=133550,6356=253480,6359=253416,247=256617,294=253395,138=10075,104=4054;161=1451;M;I&sesnextrep=645855543509953&ScreenWidth=1280&McMMainWidth=1068[/web] |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 3:54
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| Notorious | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Is it recommended to weld in some threaded ends like these, or just cut threads directly into the tubing? Yes. By contrast, if you're using either heims or tie rod ends on a heavier arm, such as an early type, split Ford wishbone that was threaded, such inserts would not be needed. Although far from Corvette specific, here's a site on which you can find a lot of info on various aspects of chassis fabrication. It'll take some searching and wading through all of the BS and egos here, but there is a lot of sound info on this site re/ building things properly. Also a lot of links to unique vendors that could be helpful to anyone who does things their own way. Hokey Ass Message Board |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 4:19
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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You absolutely need to weld inserts into the tubing. Depending on the application, you'll tear through tubing with a concentrated load easily.
I'm replacing worn ends in a toe arm. Also, if you guys make them, don't forget to make one end LH thread and the other RH thread so you can adjust them on the car by spinning the bar one way. Put a flat spot in the middle for the wrench. The loads are listed on each part. I pull 1.6g, car weighs 3000 lbs...assume I split the load evenly along one side of the car. I get 1500*1.6 = 2400 lbs. Add a 50% safety factor and I'm at 3600 lbs. The cheapest ones support 10000lbs, but I'm guessing that's a static load along one axis. Any thoughts on what the dynamic loading along different vectors is going to do? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 4:42
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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 It's always gonna be in pure tension or compression.If the link is at an angle to whatever load is applied to the knuckle, then I guess you could use cosine factor to translate the load in the direction of the link. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 5:38
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Is it recommended to weld in some threaded ends like these, or just cut threads directly into the tubing? Nope, never cut threads in tubing that will be under stress, especially under tension. We use these to build struts and suspension links and use only DOM chromemoly. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 16:07
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| BillH | Re: Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Anyone have a hookup or suggestion where to get high quality rod ends for racing applications? Just an example, a standard steel 3/4 x3/4 bore is rated at 11,500lbs, $30, the high strength alloy is 27,000 at $73. These are Aurora bearings. You can get to the .50 bore with a reducer (it's done all the time on race cars) or with hats ( which is done a lot but they're a pain ). Get this catalog: go to www.aircraftspruce.com and get their racecar catalog, their aircraft catalog is good too. Their west coast warehouse is near bogas and central, east coast is in Georgia. This is where I get all my hardware, I only use AN bolts on suspension stuff. Another good reference catalog is at: www.pegasusautoracing.com , lots of little hard to find parts,etc. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 16:25
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Primarily tension or compression, but there will be plenty of shock loading (i hit curbing), some loading perpendicular to the rod, etc. Plus exposure to the elements and extreme vibration. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 19:33
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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So are you worried about shock putting some thrust on the spherical bearing and knocking it out of the hole? I still don't see that happening.
They should be so freely moving that even the weight of the link trying to change direction shouldn't put any significant side load on the rod end. I guess what all this means anyhow is aluminum tubing is out of the question? Seems like a larger aluminum piece could give you just as much buckling strength as steel for less weight, and tension strength for the same amount of weight, not to mention better impact resistance due to thicker walls, and better stiffness against bending. (These are all factors of the stiffness and dimensions, and not the actual material strength.) I'll go back and look for some aluminum inserts. I'd worry about the threads pulling out though. How else could it be fastened? Are AN threads like acme threads, square threads? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 19:52
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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So are you worried about shock putting some thrust on the spherical bearing and knocking it out of the hole? I still don't see that happening. I'm actually more worried about them wearing out. Mine have slop in them, hence the need for replacement. It appears that even the weakest ones handle 10,000 lbs, so I'm not worried about breakage. But I hope a stronger version will handle the abuse and remain tight and within tolerance longer. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/18 21:23
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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So are you worried about shock putting some thrust on the spherical bearing and knocking it out of the hole? I still don't see that happening. I haven't seen a spherical bearing fail in a thrust application, but it can happen. In any application where the bearing is mounted in shear and not positively retained by the surrounding structure, a safety retaining washer should be used. These washers have a bevel that allows full movement of the rod bearing. This is a tech inspection requiremant. You can get aluminum tie rods from someone like Erv Hoerr. They are 1 in. x .200 wall, 6061 T6. AN threads are UNF, just higher tensile material. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/19 16:11
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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I'll be getting a set from mcmaster carr, the medium ones (with grease fittings) are only about $11. I need a bushing to reduce the bore from 3/4" to 1/2" also. At that price, even if they wear out quicker I'll still save money. It's not like they're difficult to remove, it's maybe a 20 minute job.
Pegasus has some for like $17 so I may go that route just to support a race shop, but who knows. When monday comes and they're open I'll order. I was pretty surprised that VB&P, which is where I bought the original set-up, wanted to charge me a huge amount of money to replace these. This whole thread was started because they wanted $44 per rod end. To do all 4 would obviously then be $176. Buying a whole new piece is $250, and new parts get a discount (replacement components do NOT) with either CF or NASA of 10%, so $225. Why the hell would I buy 4 ends when for a few bucks more I could get a whole new set of rods? Good way to drive away a loyal customer... |
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Posted on: 2008/1/20 6:49
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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I got a new catalog today from Speedway Motors. I don't use them much because they're mostly dirt/oval stuff.
They have chrome moly, steel on steel, 3/4 for $17 and the good ones, 4130 chrome moly, hard chrome-heat treated ball with kevlar/teflon liner for $26. They also have swedged steel sleeves 3/4 x 3/4 R&L thread, 1in x .095 wall. A 9 to 12 inch is $10. www.SpeedwayMotors.com |
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Posted on: 2008/1/23 1:12
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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I got a new catalog today from Speedway Motors. I don't use them much because they're mostly dirt/oval stuff. Thanks, Bill. That ended up being the way to go. Everyone else was either exhorbitantly expensive ($45-70) or didn't have any idea if they'd hold up to automotive use. I figured $10 each extra (over the mcmaster price) was worth peace of mind that they'd hold up. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1536,107_Heat-Treated-Chrome-Moly-Rod-Ends-and-Heim-Joints-Male.html?itemNo=rod%20ends Applications: Steering & Suspension For Racing & High Horsepower Applications. Kevlar/Teflon Race Reduces Slop & Eliminates Binding To Provide Smooth & Precise Movement Of Steering & Suspension. The Ultimate In Strength & Durability. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/24 19:30
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Did you consider fabbing your own before going to VB&P?
I wonder if it would be worth the cost savings, I'll try adding it up. Does anyone sell universal tie rods in various lengths? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/24 19:35
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Did you consider fabbing your own before going to VB&P? I bought these years ago, so I didn't bother to think about fabbing them up at the time. I believe it would be easy, use standard tube, insert some threaded female ends, add heim rod ends and you're done. However, at $225 for a set from various manufacturers I doubt you'd save much money. Clearly the rod ends are the largest portion of the cost and you still need to purchase some. There's another thread here on the guru about this, you missed it? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/24 23:46
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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VB&P wants $440 for the dogbones. That's $110 each.
If the rod ends are $15 each, 8 of those is $120. Sounds like $320 is plenty of room to work with for cutting 4 tubes, and welding in 8 inserts. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 0:08
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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VB&P wants $440 for the dogbones. That's $110 each. The rod ends I bought were $25 each, so $200. And you'll want some fairly strong inserts, but I wouldn't guess they'd be much, maybe $5 each. So I'd say you could save about 50%. Could be worth it. Make me a set of trailing arms. They're $440 on VBP, I'll give you $250. http://www.vbandp.com/detail.aspx?ID=530 |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 1:22
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Did you consider fabbing your own before going to VB&P? Yep, there's quite a few sources. Speedway has them with swaged ends (threaded inserts) Steel, 1 in. , 9 to 12 in.lengths -$ 10, 13 to 20 in.-$13, 21 to 30 -$17 Aluminum 1 in- $13 to $15 The chromemoly 3/4 ends are $26 So, for 4 ends and 2, 24in tubes - $138 Erv Hoerr's tubes Alum - $17 HD Steel - $48 If you don't know who Erv is, he drove TransAm Corvettes for years, he even builds complete carbonfiber C5 & C6 bodied. I highly recommend getting his catalog. www.hrpworld.com |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 2:09
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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SpectatorRacing ( U gotta get a shorter handle or I'm gonna start calling you Scary again, I only want to type 5 letters or I'll forget what I was gonna say
Anyway, were the rod ends that were worn out were on the rear camber links, right? What kind of material were they, specifically the inside liner, steel,nylon etc. And how long did you run them. The reason I'm asking is that I don't see rod ends wearing out that much at the track. Maybe I'm not looking at the right cars. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 2:23
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Oooh boy. I gotta take some measurements when I get home.
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 2:25
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Hmm. I wonder how much load those rods can possibly see? Lighter is better if I can get away with it.
A grade 8 bolt is good for about 120,000 psi in tension at the thread root. But they'll fail in tension at about 23,200 psi under fatigue. Grade 5 bolts are good for about 18,600 psi under fatigue. Looks like they usually snap at the first engaged thread. After 6 or 7 threads, the rest don't carry any load at all. Of course they're preloaded too. Overtightening them reduces how much load the link can carry. Hard to find info about thread strength. If they're in an aluminum link, the threads may strip first. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 2:36
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Quote:
SpectatorRacing ( U gotta get a shorter handle or I'm gonna start calling you Scary again, I only want to type 5 letters or I'll forget what I was gonna say I go by Spec 1 amongst the team since I'm the founding member  Spec 2 ran a Mustang until last week when he bought the L98 C4 referenced in a few of my other threads, Spec 3 runs a Mazda (he's the import arm), and newly annointed Spec 4 is Matt26R here on the Guru. The end that is worn is on the toe arm actually. At the hub. I thought it was a bad bearing due to the slop, but further inspection revealed that the slop was in the heim end. It's off the car and dissassembled, so it's difficult to duplicate the slop without the leverage of the wheel (just like a bearing failure). They've been on the car for a few years, maybe 3 seasons? It's hard to say what kind they are, but they are greaseable so I doubt they're the teflon lined type. I'm happy to send it to you or CC should someone want to dissassemble and inspect. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 15:04
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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What is your opinion on the teflon lined vs greaseable vs non-greaseable for this application?
Or do you not have one yet? The VB&P ones appear to be teflon lined on the toe rod. But their dogbones are greaseable, and maybe not teflon lined? I'll check the website again. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 15:39
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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What is your opinion on the teflon lined vs greaseable vs non-greaseable for this application? Good lord, dude, don't you sleep? I don't have an opinion yet. It seems that for this application you'd need the ability to grease them, but all of the higher quality (read: more expensive) versions of the rod ends at both racing shops (pegasus, speedway) and industrial (mcmaster carr) seem to be teflon lined with no zerg fittings. I have to trust the experience of those who have been doing this longer until I verify for myself. Clearly I'll keep you posted on the performance of the parts I ordered, but we won't know until a few months from now. Don't forget these, BTW: http://www.quartermax.com/details.php ... rd&searchTerm=217064a None of the 3/4 thread ends had a small enough bore. The hole size in the knuckle is 1/2". |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 16:02
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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All of VB&Ps rod ends are greaseable.
I was actually thinking I could afford to go smaller on some of them with the swaged tubes. GM went pretty big on the lower camber link for example, which carries the weight of the car. Then the toe rod is tiny, and the dogbones in between. If I try stuff from mcmastercarr, I may put a few different types of rod ends in there, mix up some greasables with the teflon ones, race it on the same tracks and see which holds up better. I should do about 5 or 6 HPDEs this year. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 16:10
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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What is your opinion on the teflon lined vs greaseable vs non-greaseable for this application? There was a long discussion on one of the roadracing sites about this probably 3 or 4 years ago, so I wouldn't be able to find it. The general feeling is that lubing is not good, especially bearings that are lined. There were a couple of guys that used WD or Triflo (teflon) spray on the bearings and saw premature wear. The feeling was that the lube can collect dirt and pull it into the bearing as the rod end moves. I'm guessing but, I would think that a greasable bearing may have a little more clearance tolerance to let the lube it. A teflon bearing has really tight tolerances and does a good job of keeping out dirt. They are so tight that the bearing is very hard to move when new. They were also saying that they felt thet the steel ball was wearing oy=ut before the lining ( nobody had any engineering data to back this up though). If you look at the materials used, greaseable bearings are usually made from carbon steel with a hardened ball. The good bearings have a 4130 chromemoly body, kevlar/teflon lining, a heat treated ball and much higher load spec. I think that over time the higher priced rod ends will actually be a better value and save you some $$. I've never seen a greaseable bearing at the track including the HD stuff on a GT1, tubeframe Corvette. I've got an older formua car that has teflon rod ends that are over 10 years old with probably 100 race weekends on them and they still don't need replacing ( yea, I know, lighter car less loading). There are dirt seals available for rod ends but the only place I've seen them is on the dirt tracks. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 16:14
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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It's $1040 for all their top stuff for the rear of the car!
I can definitely beat that. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 16:20
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Hmm. I wonder how much load those rods can possibly see? Lighter is better if I can get away with it. One thing on measurements, what I usually use on thread engagement is to thread the rod in using up 5/8 to 3/4 of the total thread length ans leave the rest of the threads for adjustment. I read that somewhere, long ago. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 16:24
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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I still go into "that other forum" at times but only in the "autocross & roadracing section.
There's an interesting post by Randy, DRM about interest in camber rod brackets that relocate the rods for better camber angle under cornering. It's not supprising thet some of the motorsports guys have done the homework on the bumpsteer stuff we were discussing. And, of course, they don't let you know the dimensions. But, they've gotta make a living. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 16:31
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Ball joint rod ends are also known as rod-end bearings. They support loads, transfer motion, and handle a relatively high degree of angular misalignment. Ball joint rod ends are available in two- and three-piece versions.
Two piece consist of a housing (body) and a ball that swivels. They generally handle the highest static radial load and the greatest degree of misalignment. Some of our two-piece rod ends have a liner, typically made of PTFE, that reduces the need for lubrication. Three piece consist of a housing, a ball that swivels, and a race. This style offers better load distribution and smoother operation. Weird, here's some in order by strength and cost. The aluminum ones look interesting. So if I go higher strength, I can potentially use a smaller rod end and rod right? The rod end has got to be the limiting factor in these aftermarket pieces. Carbon-Fiber-Reinforced Race Ball Joint Rod Ends A PTFE-lubricated, carbon-fiber-reinforced plastic race provides wear resistance and doesn't require lubrication. Rod ends are three-piece and have a zinc-plated steel housing and ball. 3/4" rod end load rating = 10,937 lbs @ $17.36 PTFE-Lined Aluminum Ball Joint Rod Ends Strong, lightweight, and corrosion resistant, these three-piece ball joint rod ends have an anodized aluminum housing, a chrome-plated 52100 bearing steel ball, and a self-lubricating PTFE-lined steel race. 3/4" rod end load rating = 13,319 lbs @ $23.66 Ultra-Strength Oversized-Shank Ball Joint Rod Ends Also known as step shanks, these are our strongest rod ends thanks to the fact that they have an oversized shank and more material in the head. They're three-piece with a heat-treated chrome-plated 52100 bearing steel ball that glides on a self-lubricating, self-sealing PTFE/Kevlar race. Under heavy shock loads (suddenly applied loads), the ball makes contact with the metal for added support. Available with a male-threaded shank only. Aluminum— Housing is anodized aircraft aluminum. Steel— Housing is heat-treated chrome molybdenum steel. 3/4" rod end load rating = 19,300 lbs @ 30.72 (aluminum) 3/4" rod end load rating = 40,572 lbs @ 38.02 (chrome moly) |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 16:44
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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You could go smaller on the higher strength tubes and rodends. You'd have to have your engineering calculations right.
I tend towards overkill on any thing thet could break and put me into the wall. Yea, the rodends are the limiting factor. When you see cars with minor contact, it's usually the rod end that breaks ( at the threads of course ). A lot of racing chit is designed like that. Rodends are cheaper to replace that wishbones. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 17:10
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Or spinal cords.
Yeah, I guess the loads during racing are nothing, it has to be designed for when you smack a curb or barrier. I picked through the Speedway and Mcmaster catalogs carefully, and it appears that they are selling the same stuff! Apples to apples Speedway is cheaper, plus they have it all in one place. I'll be going there as soon as I can justify it. I feel bad about spending more money on the car before I'm good enough to feel the difference. But the lower camber links are binding horribly, and the cam bolts keep adjusting themselves on one side. I'll check the car and see what extra hardware I need to attach it. That's probably where the VB&P kit comes in handy. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 18:17
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Senior Guru
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These look like the same to me, in this order...
Speedway: 1171212 Alum RH Male, 3/4" Shank, 3/4" Hole, $15.99 1171012 Alum X-Series RH Male, 3/4" Shank, 5/8" Hole, $16.99 91002136 Chrome Moly RH Male, 3/4"-16 Shank, 3/4" Hole, $24.99 91002146 Chrome Moly RH Male, 3/4"-16 Shank, 5/8" Hole, $25.99 McMaster: 60685K15 Aluminum 3/4"x3/4" 13,319 lbs Anodized Aircraft Alum $23.66 4466T401 Aluminum 3/4"x5/8" 19,300 lbs Anodized Aircraft Alum $30.72 4483T8 Steel 3/4"x3/4" 28,081 lbs Heat-Treated, Chrome Moly $40.90 4475T601 Steel 3/4"x5/8" 40,572 lbs Heat-Treated, Chrome Moly $38.02 |
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Posted on: 2008/1/25 18:34
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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Quote:
These look like the same to me, in this order... You must be on the Speedway website. The 1171212 p/n isn't shown in the paper catalog. The 3/4 thread, gold anodized, 6061 T-6 is p/n 910-34134-length-alu They're $ 14.99 for 22 to 27 in. Is the 1171212 the same spec? I may be stating the obvious but, on the 91002136 rod ends, you'll need one right hand and one left hand 91002346 . Also, don't forget the jam nuts 175-6047-specify (right or lefthand) to lock the assy. after adjustment. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/26 15:14
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| sprint7677 | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Senior Guru
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Speedway motors, get the big ones they use on the dirt modifieds.
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Posted on: 2008/1/30 3:32
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| Slalom4me | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Guru
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Did anyone mention THK, yet?
Here is info about THK's Rod Ends. Here is their Link Ball catalog Quote=BrianCunningham "I just wonder what temps the resin and seals can take." From Link Ball Technical Description Page A-939: Temperature Range "The temperature range of the Link Ball series is basically between -20ºC and 80ºC (-4ºF to 176ºF). If the service temperature exceeds this range, contact THK [(see examples of testing outside this range on pages A-930 to A-933)]" On pages A-932 and A-933 they report on results from 280 hrs at -30ºC and 100ºC (-22ºF and 212ºF) "The boot did not show a crack or the like at low temperature. The holder did not show abnormal wear and the boot did not show thermal deterioration at high temperature." Carroll Smith's books have a great deal of information regarding design, fabrication and attachment of racecar bits. . |
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Posted on: 2008/1/30 21:22
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Elite Guru
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Received the Speedway parts last week and installed them last night. No feedback on how they last will be available until this summer, however. One concern is that I had to insert a reducer bushing (3/4" to 1/2") in each one and in one end the bushing was loose. The other was a slight interferance fit as expected. I wonder if that will translate into slop on the track.
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Posted on: 2008/2/6 20:55
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aka Scaryfast |
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Senior Guru
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How are these spacers working? The rod end hole is bigger than the bushing bolt. So you put a sleeve in the rod end, sort of like the original bushings have?
Then this sleeve has to be long enough to clamp down when the bushing bolt is tightened, or at least have the correct ID so that it isn't sloppy on the suspension bolt. Are your rod ends loading the suspension bolts, or the knuckle directly? The reason I ask is usually the bolts aren't supposed to be put in shear. They're put in tension which causes the bolted components to transfer the load directly through the load bearing surface. If that doesn't make sense let me know. Of course none of that really matters for me right now because it looks like I just blew my car budget for the next few months when my tranny went out. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/6 21:00
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Elite Guru
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You are correct - the sleeves are necessary because no one (at least no one that I could find in 2 weeks of research) sells a 3/4-16 thread with a 1/2" bore. Most are 3/4" bore so you need the reducer bushing.
It is slightly longer than the thickness of the bore so the bolt clamps down on the bushing rather than the rod end. The attachment is definately putting the bolt in shear. It bolts to the top of the "arm" that sticks rearward from the knuckle. I can take a photo later if you like. I can't remember how the stock toe arms attached, anyone have a picture? The camber rods are surrounded by the knuckle on either side, but again, the bolt is in shear. But I do remember that this is how the stock parts were fastened. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/6 21:31
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Senior Guru
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What's wrong with a 5/8"x1/2" ? I figured you were doing 3/4" because of the bolt size.
Those rod ends looked really narrow, I figured the stock bushing would be way wider and you'd need some shims in there. Are you sure you don't want to clamp any force on the sides of the ball? How tight do the As for the attachment, I was mixing that up with a control arm mount, I forgot you were dealing with basically replacing a miniature ball joint.(factory tie rod end) Is it really necessary to replace those? They already have bearings in them. I thought the goal was to just get rid of the bushings. Also I think you may be incorrect on those control arm bolts being in shear from the factory. The bolts merely clamp the bushing sleeves. The load is taken up by the contact surface between the sleeve end and the knuckle. The bolt isn't supposed to carry that load. The bolt should be (?) in pure tension I believe. Otherwise you can visualize the slop allowing the inner sleeve to rattle on the bolt and beat it to death. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/6 21:50
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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Quote:
Received the Speedway parts last week and installed them last night. No feedback on how they last will be available until this summer, however. One concern is that I had to insert a reducer bushing (3/4" to 1/2") in each one and in one end the bushing was loose. The other was a slight interferance fit as expected. I wonder if that will translate into slop on the track. That's strange. The rod end holes should have a very tight tolerance. Were the bushings fabricated or just made out of tubing? I don't use many spacers, mostly use hats. But you can take a hat out of the rod end hole and put it on the other side of the hole and there's no play. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/7 15:21
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| BillH | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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The Stig Moderator
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Quote:
That would be interesting to know. Would the proper tension/torque on the bolt (240 lbs for a 3/4 bolt) put enough force on the load bearing surfaces to handle the force of the car in a corner? And tension force from the bolt would be different for a rod end (the surface area of the side of the ball) v.s. the stock components. I don't know, just thinking out loud. On the formula cars, I think all the forces are on the bolts in shear. The attaching bolts are so small that the clamping force on the blots is next to nothing. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/7 15:40
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Where to get heim rod ends? | ||
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Senior Guru
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Yeah I may be wrong on that. But you'd be surprised how much load a well clamped joint can handle.
If you can muster a guess how much the links get loaded up, and the ID and OD of the load bearing surface on the sleeve, I can figure out the bolt torque and see if it's reasonable. Maybe the sleeves are a good idea, since they probably give you more load bearing surface on the sides than just the ball. Even a rod end bolted in a single-sheer scenario might not get as much shear as you'd expect. Meaning the ID of the rod end or sleeve may never contact the OD of the bolt at all during loading when it's clamped down. Anyhow, I'm nerding it up too much. Time to head to work where I get paid to act like one. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/7 16:41
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