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Oaklands Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
Senior Guru
Morristown, TN
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I have been having some issues with my 88 4+3 when starting it. Here is what happened today so maybe you could point me in the right direction:

The car started fine for the first start of the day. I drove about 6 miles to Lowes. Went into Lowes and picked up a few chemicals for the hot tub. I was probably in the store 15 minutes

I come back out and the car sounds like it is not getting any fuel. I always turn the key on for 3-5 seconds before cranking. It did not want to start on the first try. I turn the key off and push the accelerator to the floor. It still doesn't crank right up but does crank, but then won't idle. It keeps dying. The check engine light comes on.

I turn it off and start it again. The check engine light stays on and it won't idle for crap and keeps dying. I can actually hear a a couple of backfires under the hood. I have to keep it revved up to keep it running. I am on my way to the grocery store now and it dies at a stop light. I crank it again and it dies twice while I am moving. I am in 2nd and have to pop the clutch on 2 occasions to keep it running. The "Service engine soon" light stays on the whole time. I get to the grocery store, turn it off and grab my handy dandy paper clip.

I try to get some codes out of it, and like always, all I get are the 12's. No other codes at all. I let it go through it about 10 times and all are 12's. I turn the switch off and back to the on position and try again. All 12's again.

I go into the grocery store for about 15 minutes, come back out and it starts like nothing was ever wrong. Idles perfecty at 700 rpms and take off. I drive about 10 miles to the marina to check on my boat. I am there about 25-30 minutes and the car starts slow, but idles just fine.

I go about 4 miles to drop by my dads. Visit with him for about 30 minutes. When I leave it cranks right up and no problems.

I drive to another store to pick up something for the wife. The car sits for about 15 minutes and then it takes about 5 seconds to start, idles a little rough at first, then runs fine.

This is about as detailed as I can get about todays events. I can't understand why I can never get any codes out of it. But it seems the problem is more when it sets for a little while and is still warm if this helps any.

Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

Keith
Posted on: 2008/2/3 22:12
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Notorious RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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I'm thinking a fuel system issue. And the fact that it ran so poorly at that one point might have me to start with checking the pressure regulator. I think Bogus knows a little about that issue! I hope this gets you started in the right direction anyway.
Posted on: 2008/2/3 22:19
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bogus RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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gee... you really need to find out why the SES is coming on.

Those issues sound like there is either a fuel delivery problem, or, an intermittent ignition failure.

I need to get my EASE system back from subman, if you need it, I can have him mail it off to you... do you have a laptop?

Do this first - make damned sure the battery connections and engine grounds are all good.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 6:22
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Crazy8 RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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If you weren't getting codes, I would say a possible separated fuel filter.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 14:16
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Morristown, TN
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Quote:
gee... you really need to find out why the SES is coming on.

Those issues sound like there is either a fuel delivery problem, or, an intermittent ignition failure.

I need to get my EASE system back from subman, if you need it, I can have him mail it off to you... do you have a laptop?

Do this first - make damned sure the battery connections and engine grounds are all good.


I do have a laptop computer. It is strange how it acts. The car dying does not happen every day, but the slow starting does. I have looked at some of the grounds and they seem to be solid. The battery cables are tight as well. I never have a cranking problem as far as the battery is concerned. It turns over very well and you can tell it has plenty of cranking amps. It just seems like it is not getting the fuel at times.

You mentioned intermittent ignition failure. Are you talking about the ignition switch itself where I turn the key or somewhere else down the line?

Thanks,

Keith
Posted on: 2008/2/4 18:12
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Morristown, TN
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Quote:
If you weren't getting codes, I would say a possible separated fuel filter.


I'll check that. I was wondering if it could be some crap in the gas? I have a full tank of Sunoco 93. However, the car does only have 41k on it and the last owner only put 12k on from 1999 until I bought it a couple of months ago.

Unfortunately I do not have test equipment. I will probably get with bogus and see what kind of basic testing equipment I should get that won't set me back an arm and a leg.

Thanks
Posted on: 2008/2/4 18:14
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DrEvil RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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If you could get down this a way we could take a look at it. I've got a few tools and a couple of FSMs. I just went to the garage and checked, I have the FSM from 89, 90, 91, 93 and of course 96. The 89 would be most applicable to your car. I'd start with checking fuel press. I've got a guage but you can pick one up prety cheap at advance auto. I would put the guage on and tape the dial to the windshield (if you get one with a long enough hose) and drie around for short distances with a couple of WOT blasts and pay close attention to FP.
After that I'd start on ignition checks.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 18:24
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Morristown, TN
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Quote:
If you could get down this a way we could take a look at it. I've got a few tools and a couple of FSMs. I just went to the garage and checked, I have the FSM from 89, 90, 91, 93 and of course 96. The 89 would be most applicable to your car. I'd start with checking fuel press. I've got a guage but you can pick one up prety cheap at advance auto. I would put the guage on and tape the dial to the windshield (if you get one with a long enough hose) and drie around for short distances with a couple of WOT blasts and pay close attention to FP.
After that I'd start on ignition checks.


What town are you in? I could maybe come by after my wife recovers from her back surgery.

I have a Helms FSM for my car. Wish I knew more about how to use it. Some of the schematics lose me. Simple mind you know.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 18:39
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CentralCoaster RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Do you have any trouble on cold starts?

It sounds like you have some leaking injectors, this can intermittently flood the engine on warm starts and make it run like ass. Flooring it, cranking it, stop, then restarting normally would cure this condition.

Have you checked your fuel pressure after shutdown or while driving?

It sounds like you may have some other drivability issue aside from that. I don't like the check engine light coming on yet there's no codes. Does the battery clear it? Does the SES light come on with key on? Maybe an ECM problem.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 20:40
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Quote:
Do you have any trouble on cold starts?

It sounds like you have some leaking injectors, this can intermittently flood the engine on warm starts and make it run like ass. Flooring it, cranking it, stop, then restarting normally would cure this condition.

Have you checked your fuel pressure after shutdown or while driving?

It sounds like you may have some other drivability issue aside from that. I don't like the check engine light coming on yet there's no codes. Does the battery clear it? Does the SES light come on with key on? Maybe an ECM problem.


Cold starts seem to be fine. It fires right up.

I tried the flooring it, cranking it, stop routine. It did not help. It kept dying on me on the way to the grocery store from Lowe's.

Dr. Evil said he had a fuel pressure gauge. I don't own one as of yet. (Keep in mind I am not a mechanic, but do want to learn). If Dr. Evil and I cannot get together then I will pick one up at Autozone.

I have not tried clearing it since there are no codes stored. The SES light does come on if I just turn the key to the on position. When shorting out pins A & B I also get the 12 codes, but no other codes. I get very frustrated when the SES stays on and then won't produce a code. If it would throw a code it would at least give me a starting point.

Would the EASE that Bogus offered to send me let me know if the ECM was the problem? I have a mechanic I use (not a corvette mechanic) who put his portable tester on my ALDL connector a while back when I was having this issue. It did not show any problems whatsoever.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 21:30
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CentralCoaster RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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There's gotta be a diagnostic page in the manual that tells you exactly what a SES light with no codes is caused by. It's gotta be the ECM, since it's never supposed to do that otherwise.

I'd focus on the verifiable problems before buying any fuel/ignition related parts.

Plus your time and money will be wasted trying to get a car running that potentially has a bad ECM.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 22:02
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Quote:
There's gotta be a diagnostic page in the manual that tells you exactly what a SES light with no codes is caused by. It's gotta be the ECM, since it's never supposed to do that otherwise.

I'd focus on the verifiable problems before buying any fuel/ignition related parts.

Plus your time and money will be wasted trying to get a car running that potentially has a bad ECM.


The FSM says if there is no data when checking the ALDL then I need to check serial data ckt 461 for open or short to ground between ECM and ALDL connector. (I will have to find CKT 461) If OK, it is a faulty ECM or Mem-Cal.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 22:11
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CentralCoaster RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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They're just asking to see if the circuit is grounded somewhere and tripping the light. Doubtful since this is all underdash stuff. If the ECM is faulty and grounding it, it could be with the car on or off. So I would think you have to disconnect it from the computer before checking to see if the circuit is bad.

And obviously if it was an open circuit, it wouldn't light up at all. Also, does the 12V side of the SES light always have power? if yes, then a pinched off circuit would cause the light to stay on even when the key was off. So maybe your ecm is just grounding it only when it powers up.

Even if the ECM swap doesn't cure it you may be able to return the part.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 22:19
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Morristown, TN
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Quote:
They're just asking to see if the circuit is grounded somewhere and tripping the light. Doubtful since this is all underdash stuff. If the ECMis faulty and grounding it, it could be with the car on or off. So I would think you have to disconnect it from the computer before checking to see if the circuit is bad.

And obviously if it was an open circuit, it wouldn't light up at all. Also, does the 12V side of the SES light always have power? if yes, then a pinched off circuit would cause the light to stay on even when the key was off. So maybe your ecm is just grounding it only when it powers up.

Even if the ECM swap doesn't cure it you may be able to return the part.


The SES does not stay on with the key off. It only comes on like it should, when I turn the key to the on position and it goes off when the car is started. The only time it stays on after cranking is when I have these crazy starting problems. The rest of the time it works properly.

Will I have to get the ECM through the dealership or can it be found at most auto parts stores?
Posted on: 2008/2/4 22:34
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DrEvil RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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I'm in Andersonville, just north of Knoxville or 8 miles from exit 122 I-75. I work midnights this month and am usually available in the afternoons when on this shift. I also work a 6 days on, 3 days off schedule so I'm off many times during the week.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 3:52
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CentralCoaster RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Do you think the ecm could be losing power everytime you shut the key off and this erases the stored memory? just a thought.

not sure how you'd get around this. Try running the car, get the SES light, then stall it out with key still on and stick your jumper pin in the aldl port. See if you get a code then.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 4:05
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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I'll give that a try. Problem is, it has only stayed on like 3 times. I'll try to reproduce what I did the other day. Hopefully the weekend will be fairly nice and maybe I can try it then.

Another idea. I sold my old 88 automatic to a neighbor. Would it screw up the running of her car if I put her ECM in mine? I saw something in the FSM that you have to drive it a bit at normal speeds to get info into the ECM. I would not want to do anything that might make her car run bad.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 17:44
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CentralCoaster RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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I suspect it'll work but the shift logic won't be there. It'll be sending dead signals to a converter that's not there and not controlling your OD.

The pins are the same though, I don't see how it can cause any harm.

But yeah, you break it, you buy it.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 18:36
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Woodstock RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Quote:
Would it screw up the running of her car if I put her ECM in mine?


Not at all, just make sure to change the Calpack or commonly known as chip.
Take out her chip and put in yours and you're good to go. Manual- and/or Auto. transmissions, they both use the same ECMs.

The learning procedure only takes a few miles. By the time you are in closed loop and an additional 5 minutes of driving is about all it takes to gather enough data. It's only finetuning of the air/fuel ratio from thereon, but not of your concern with your problems.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 22:07
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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I just thought of something. Since the ECM also has control of the OD on my 4+3 would this maybe point even more to my ECM being bad? I notice that my OD will kick in after my first start of the day. The car is kept in the garage which is probably around 60 degrees. Most of the time the OD will go ahead and kick in before I reach 122 degrees. The temp gauge will still be saying LO when this happens. I'm just trying to throw out more things I have noticed that might point to the ECM.

Thanks for the replies.
Posted on: 2008/2/6 1:00
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Dads90 RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Have you gotten the TPS wet anytime in the past few weeks ?, washed the engine compartment? When mine went bad it cause the engine to load up sputter, stall, check engine light stayed on. Similar symptoms as mine, fine one minute and crappy the next. Water and dampness will kill it. Just a thought.
Posted on: 2008/2/6 3:52
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Quote:
Have you gotten the TPS wet anytime in the past few weeks ?, washed the engine compartment? When mine went bad it cause the engine to load up sputter, stall, check engine light stayed on. Similar symptoms as mine, fine one minute and crappy the next. Water and dampness will kill it. Just a thought.


It has not gotten wet. I don't drive it in the rain, unless it starts raining while I am out and it stays parked in the garage. It has done this since I bought it 2 months ago. The dying incident only about 3 times, but the slow starts have been ongoing.
Posted on: 2008/2/6 4:12
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Ramrod RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Changed the fuel filter lately? I had a similar problem with my 96. Had good fuel pressure but would stall or die on accelleration. If I'd wait for awhile it woud run, but not for long if I gassed it. I pulled the fuel pump and the FP filter was sucked up into the pump. I pulled the filter and it had a ton of $hit in it. It had pressure but no volume & no codes??
Posted on: 2008/2/6 4:32
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Quote:
Changed the fuel filter lately? I had a similar problem with my 96. Had good fuel pressure but would stall or die on accelleration. If I'd wait for awhile it woud run, but not for long if I gassed it. I pulled the fuel pump and the FP filter was sucked up into the pump. I pulled the filter and it had a ton of $hit in it. It had pressure but no volume & no codes??


I am going to change it even if it does not fix the problem. It is cheap and it can't hurt.
Posted on: 2008/2/7 1:55
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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From what I have found, an ECM from an 86 or 87 is compatible with my 88. On the dark side I found a part number of 1227165. On ebay there is a guy selling one that is supposed to have come off an 85. However, the number is BUB 0122 7943. Would this be a correct part? I cannot find anything on a part number ending in 943.
Posted on: 2008/2/7 1:59
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CentralCoaster RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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The overdrive doesn't care what the dash coolant temp says, it reads from a different sensor, and the sensors are usually off by a little.
Posted on: 2008/2/7 3:49
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tobijohn RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Quote:
From what I have found, an ECM from an 86 or 87 is compatible with my 88. On the dark side I found a part number of 1227165. On ebay there is a guy selling one that is supposed to have come off an 85. However, the number is BUB 0122 7943. Would this be a correct part? I cannot find anything on a part number ending in 943.


I just scrolled through the C4 parts microfiche and I found a part #16198250 "module, engine control (Reman)" that is the same for 85-88. There is also a #1226870 for just the 85 "module, engine control", if that's any help...
Posted on: 2008/2/7 3:49
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CentralCoaster RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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There's no way the 85 ecm is interchangeable, it's a one year deal.
Posted on: 2008/2/7 16:32
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tobijohn RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Quote:
There's no way the 85 ecm is interchangeable, it's a one year deal.



Hey, I'm just the weather bunny, reading what's going across the teleprompter...
Posted on: 2008/2/7 22:44
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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I found this in a sticky on the dark side. I think somewhere later in the topic someone refers to late 85's having the same as an 86. They also list the part numberx (REMAN) that tobijohn listed.


Years covered – ECM Part Number
1985 – 1226870
1986-1989 - 1227165
1990-1991 – 1227727
1992-1993 - 16159278
1994-1995 -16181333 or 16188051

I could not find a reference to the one ending in 943 anywhere. Seems odd since it says it was pulled off a vette.
Posted on: 2008/2/8 2:12
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CentralCoaster RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Here's my list from the GM parts book


Years covered – ECM Part Number
1984auto - 1226026
1984man - 1226430
1985 – 1226870
1986-1989 - 1227165 or 16198259
1990-1991 – 1227727 or 1619260
1992-1993 - 16159278
1994-1995 -16181333
1996 - 1214399
Posted on: 2008/2/8 3:24
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Qack Alternate Theory
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I had exactly the same symptoms about a month ago. Scared the hell out of me -- I had a vision of large sums of money flowing out of my wallet. I finally traced it to a bad battery ground. I really like it when the solution to a really nasty problem doesn't cost anything.
Posted on: 2008/2/9 6:33
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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OK, the problem happened again today a couple of times. The first time, the battery light came on. I was going down the road about 50 mph and when I would let off the gas, the rpm's would to 0. I finally pulled off on a side road, turned it off and it started up fine. No SES light on this first go around.

I was driving home and had to stop at the store. I came back out and the car cranked up fast but the SES light came on. I pulled into my garage and turned the car off and turned the key back on fast. I put the paper clip in and got a code 42. According to my FSM one of the problems could be the ECM is bad. It said a scan tool would not find this problem.

I did buy a used ECM a while back on ebay. The FSM said the mem/cal could be loose. I am assuming this is the eprom chip. Am I right, that I should take out the ECM, put my eprom in it, then try it out? I wanted to check with you gurus before I started on this project.

Thanks...
Posted on: 2008/2/27 1:19
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Qack RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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I'm betting the ECM itself is fine. I would check power to the ECM ... OK, I would check all of the connectors between the battery and the ECM..
Posted on: 2008/2/27 1:50
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geogolf RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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that is what to do, use your chip in the new ecm
Posted on: 2008/2/27 1:53
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joeld RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Lawrenceville Ga
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All the info given above this post is very good and to the point. My only suggestions would be: 1. Be sure you don't create a "static" charge when you are changing the ECM or PROM. Ground yourself first to any metal inside the car. 2. If the PROM number will match your's, you might want to consider to just try it first. 3. Take a GOOD look at the positioning of the PROM before you remove it. From what i've read they can be installed wrong. Good luck

Joel
Posted on: 2008/2/27 4:23
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corvetteronw RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Lowell, MI
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[size=12:26d40ccd19] [/size:26d40ccd19]I previously owned an 86. I had the same symptoms with a plugged cat. I never did get it to run good though, just had it towed and had a new cat put in. Corvette Central sells a high flow cat for a decent price if you need one. Oh yeah, Gordon Killebrew in one of his classes says you can test for a plugged cat by using a pyrometer. Pep Boys or other places will loan or rent you one I hear. Get the car running and aim it in front of the cat and then just aft of the cat. If there is quite a difference in temps then you have found your problem.
Hope you get this figured out.
Oh yeah, just remembered. Go to www.gordonkillebrew.com and read his ad. He does phone consults for a fee. It might be worth a few bux to get his sage advice.
Posted on: 2008/2/27 5:19
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Morristown, TN
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Thanks for the info. I will let you know my results.
Posted on: 2008/2/27 15:25
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Woodstock RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Bremen/Germany
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Code42? I'd take a look at the ignition parts first. Since your problem is heat related and first appeared to be starting issues, you might want to measure the ignition coil for proper resistance.
May be a good idea to replace the ignition module, prior to wasting an ECM.
If it is the ECM, an intermittent module might have taken it out.
I've seen it, where someone replaced the module 3 times, took out his ECM each time and finally would only work, when he replaced both parts at the same time.
Posted on: 2008/2/27 17:29
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Oaklands RE:Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Morristown, TN
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I changed the ignition control module today and it did not fix my problem. Hopefully I can find some time this week to change out the ECM. If that doesn't fix it then I don't know what will. I have not received any further codes but still have the slow start after the engine is warm.
Posted on: 2008/3/31 3:35
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JrRifleCoach Re: Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Sounds similar to my problems a while ago. The ignition module was the culprit. I did change out every frickin' relay and such before I got there. Never threw any codes so troubleshooting was all guess work.

All I can offer is encouragement at this point.
Posted on: 2008/3/31 5:31
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Oaklands Re: Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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Morristown, TN
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I did finally get this problem fixed. The computer was going bad. Good thing I bought a backup off e-bay last year. Put my eprom in the used one and it fixed my problem. It starts w/out a problem now, cold or hot.
Posted on: 2008/7/30 4:20
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bogus Re: Need a little help Gurus - Old problem with new info
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San Pedro, CA
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yay! glad you found it!
Posted on: 2008/7/30 5:12
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