If you all don't realize, we have solar hot water and solar electric in our new house. The system was installed some 10 years ago.

The gas hot water heater, which backs up the solar, has been failing - the pilot light goes out. The gas unit is old, some 14 years.

The solar is working like crazy, the heat off the (insulated) pipes is insane!

I finally figured out how this system works, and felt I would share it with the gang, so you all have more info if you are thinking about going this route.

There are 5 main components:

Solar Collector
Solar Storage Tank (converted 75g gas heater tank)
Gas Water Heater
Plumbing, pumps and valves
Goldline GL-30 pump controller

The GL-30 is the brain here.

Water comes into the system via solar collector.

The collector then stores water for a period of time. Once that time is up, meaning, the water is hot, the GL-30 then opens a valve, and a pump brings water down and into the tank, refilling the collector.

The tank stores this heated water until needed.

Ok, it is now needed. We turn on the tap and water comes out of the gas water heater... but instead of refilling the gas heater with cold water, it is refilled with heated water from the solar tank.

When this works, the gas water heater either kicks in only enough to keep the 40 gallons hot; think first thing in the morning or during an extended cloudy period. Otherwise, the gas unit isn't working at nearly the 100% duty cycle it would have been working at as the sole provider of hot water. I am figuring that when all is working right, the gas heater may only have to fire once a day.

What does all this mean? Our old house averaged a $50 per month gas bill over the last 12 months. So far, our gas bill has been only $6.00 per month... now... how much of that is the pilot failing? Donno, but the math makes sense...

I am researching parts right now, but it looks like I might be able to replace the thermalcoupler and pilot for about $50.00.

I have some books on passive solar construction that I was collecting in the early 80's. Always wanted to build one.

The passive gain in my house, upstairs is impressive. On a 30 degree sunny winter day, my furnace doesn't run from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m.
Same with the downstairs living room on a 90 degree summer day, The thermal mass of the slab keeps temps below 75 all day.

The extra insulation I added had a one year payoff. The a/c (swamp) upstairs only runs from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. on a 90 degree day.

If I thought about solar hot water, I'd have to see the payoff. I don't think I spend more than $6 a month now for electric hot water.

Interesting....how is the solar electric set up?

Good info.
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home ... g/index.cfm/mytopic=12910

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First off, I don't have an electric bill to compare with yet. DWP takes a while to come to terms with the reverse flow...

But how it works... there is an array of solar cells on the roof of the garage. Within the garage are a pair of inverters. They are a bit old now, and I do expect to update them in the near future.

The power comes in at the main junction at the box. During the day, the meter goes backwards!

Andy, Kali's new smart meters no longer run backwards.

Your fortunate that the solar systems were included in your house.
These are becoming almost unaffordable in todays pricing market.

Solar water heating can be really great or really a mess.

I've seen a lot of botched installs in my line of work.

The key really is having good exposure, and proper control. Its very easy to be left with a system that circulates at the wrong times and actually cools more than it heats.

But yeah, preheating the water and using a seperate storage tank is the basics. Some people manage to screw that up even.

I don't use much hot water. My biggest waste right now is probably my poorly landscaped lawn that requires too much watering and mowing, and my single pane windows.

I'm confident these new smart meters will never be used for power rationing or carbon credit enforcement in the future.

My solar is strictly passive. When I designed and built the 12'x20' room addition in '83, I put the southern exposed windows high enough and the roof overhang deep enough so the windows (and room) are shaded in summer and exposed to sunlight in winter. It works.
I looked into roof mounted panels at the time, really wasn't cost effective in this climate.

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Yea, it sure does work. I have somewhere around 85 - 90 sq.ft. of west facing glass upstairs.
Makes for a good view too.

I have a big enough yard now that I could put up a solar clothes dryer out in the back.

....

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Self drying:

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I did lots of research in the early 80's on solar. When it came time to actually build my house (85-86), it didn't appear to pay off in our climate. The thing that made most sense, was over-insulated. I have between R25-R30 in my walls and R45-50 in the ceilings. Over the years it has served us well. I believe the insulation in the attic has settled some and I should go back and add some more.

Good for you Bogus! 50.00 to 6.00 is a great savings!. We just had a bid done at work for solar. They want 2 mil to do it and then with the credits we are looking at 1.4 mil. Don't see it happening. Pay back is just too far away.st my .02

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I can see in the more northern climates that return just isn't there. You lose so much sun for so long during the winter, that your exposure time is measured in literal minutes... I could see that in Dec and Jan, you would get good sun MAYBE 2 hrs a day, and that's if the weather is clear.

I suspect wind would be the harnessed nature of choice.

I agree that over insulating is a great idea. I want to do the attic in this place. It's got some, but it has all settled, too. I doubt if it's any better than R2 right now! Windows are on my list, also.

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Uh, "mil". Are you speaking in pennies? Those numbers are not adding up in my brain at all!

I am figuring our annual gas usage will work out closer to about $10.00 per month, once winter is equated in.

Even so, that means $120.00 a year for gas, vs $450.00. Can't wait to see the electric bill! I know the meter goes backwards during the day.

Where we live, we have a great due south exposure. Now, to put that into perspective, we are at 33*, so pretty south. And the exposure, even during the shorter winter days, allows for 4-6 hours of direct sunlight, 70 of the 90 days of winter.

I could never have done this in Delaware... there were just too many trees!

I have added a pic of the panels from Google Earth. The image is oriented such that the top is due north.

This is an older pic, about 18 months ago. The house was something of a halfway house, and there were quite a few folks living here. The owners did a lot to clean it up over the next 12 months before we bought it. The large palm is gone (bummer, looks nice!) and the lawn is much nicer.

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I spent less than $700 for wall insulation (house wrap and 1 inch Styrofoam). The payback was 1 year. I could only do the Styrofoam because I was doing windows and siding at the time. The windows cost a couple hundred extra because the sills were 2 inches wider (but still a standard size).

The change to the way it feels inside the house was incredible both winter and summer.

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Like TB I built our house in 85, Solar and Wind was a hot topic then for builders. I researched the details but the cost and aesthetic "look" was not in our best interest. I built our house with 2x6 16 on center and urethaned foamed and batt insulated the walls and 24" of installation in the ceiling. Because of the square footage we have 2 gas forced air furnaces and A/C units. Air infiltration in non existant with 3/4" exterior sheathing and tyvak wrapped. Gas bills in the winter will average near $100. My neighbor installed a wood burning heating system for less than 5k. Unit is self contained outside approx 40 feet from the house with insulated duct work running unground to the main heating system. Exterior wood burner looks like a little meat smoke house. His gas bill during the winter months averaged 10 dollars. It automatically feeds wood into the fire box. He cuts fire wood all year long. His only costs for fire wood is the Stihl Farm Boss Chain Saw.

Ron - These savings come in many ways... Either passively via insulation or actively via some alternative form of energy creation.

My folks bought the house in 1974, it was built, over a span of time, starting about 1890. When they remodeled, Mom was determined to preserve the original windows... removed each, lye dipped them, reinstalled the original glass, repaint... then added storm windows to each frame. This arrangement had as much insulative power as an open door.

The panes rattled, the windows leaked and they never did live up to their expectation for energy conservation. Not even close. We resorted to wrapping the windows in plastic, but that never really worked great; the plastic would tear, or just leak around the edges. They did insulate the outer walls and attic. R19 in the walls, no clue about the attic.

Then in 1991, she finally unassed the cash to replace all the windows with thermal insulated casements and sided the house in vinyl, which covered the old asbestos siding with a 1/2" layer of pink stuff and then the vinyl.

The house was 100x tighter... and my Mom, in all her wonderful logic, gave credit to the siding for warming up the place... I had to remind her that the walls weren't leaking air, it was the DAMNED WINDOWS. ugh... Her oil bill that first season dropped in half. I suspect the windows paid for themselves within 10 years. The windows and siding were part of a bigger project, I expect the windows were about $5k of it... 25 windows... about $200 each, total about $5k. The siding, and kitchen redo didn't help matters.

A neighbour of mine did a wood burning heater, too. Converted an oil burner over to wood, IIRC. It had an auto feed system, also... he had his cut wood stacked neatly and this belt thingy would take in what it needed when it needed it. Worked pretty well. Only saw it one time, and that was 15 years ago! His was in the basement.

Out here in God's country we have closed loop heat exchangers that pump a glycol mix either deep in the ground or if you have the room about 600 feet of pipe buried 6 foot deep in a loop.

When we built the addition 10 years ago propane was 50 cents a gal and the cost to put the system in was about 10K over just the regular Heat pump with propane forced air back up, so that is what we went with.......folks that went the closed loop system are getting the pay back big time now that propane is $1.80/gal. They are paying a ton less for heating and cooling.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.......

It's hard to sell alternative energy, when primary energy is cheap...

Those that adopt at that time look like tree huggers, when deep down inside, all they are doing is making themselves less dependent on infrastructure.

I am going to look into a bypass system for the gas water heater. If we ever lose gas, I would like to have hot water!

Andy,

Have you considered a tankless gas water heater when the current Gas unit finally goes ? I would think that working with the solar it might be the thing to do. The Little Blind Woman and I have been following this technology for several years now and it is really coming on strong. There are several on the market now.

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Ken,

Yes, very much so. But since the problem with the current unit is only costing $5.50, I am not in the mood to spend $1500 for the heater at this time.

Essentially, tankless run about twice the price of conventional. However, they are SUPER efficient.

Our hot water heater hasn't spent much of its life really generating hot water; its been a conduit for hot water. I am figuring that the tank must be pretty clean inside because of that.

I am going to check into a water conditioner/filter system. My guess is that something of that nature will allow the solar to last much longer.

My folks had the hot water circulation system on the roof that was installed in the late 70s/80s. I think it was neat, the house was always warm. No idea on the heating costs. When they redid the roof a few years ago they eliminated it because it was too costly to repair/replace everything.

I would love to do solar power panels, but the upfront cost vs benefit isn't there.

Matthew

http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

LOOK OVER THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE FOLLOWING TWO HOUSES AND SEE IF YOU CAN TELL WHICH BELONGS TO AN ENVIRONMENTALIST.

HOUSE # 1:

A 20-room mansion (not including 8 bathrooms) heated by natural gas. Add on a pool (and a pool house) and a separate guest house all heated by gas. In ONE MONTH ALONE this mansion consumes more energy than the average American household in an ENTIRE YEAR. The average bill for electricity and natural gas runs over $2,400.00 per month. In natural gas alone (which last time we checked was a fossil fuel), this property consumes more than 20 times the national average for an American home. This house is not in a northern or Midwestern "snow belt," either. It's in the South.

HOUSE # 2:

Designed by an architecture professor at a leading national university, this house incorporates every "green" feature current home construction can provide. The house contains only 4,000 square feet (4 bedrooms) and is nestled on arid high prairie in the American southwest. A central closet in the house holds geothermal heat pumps drawing ground water through pipes sunk 300 feet into the ground. The water (usually 67 degrees F.) heats the house in winter and cools it in summer. The system uses no fossil fuels such as oil or natural gas, and it consumes 25% of the electricity required for a conventional heating/cooling system. Rainwater from the roof is collected and funneled into a 25,000 gallon underground cistern. Wastewater from showers, sinks and toilets goes into underground purifying tanks and then into the cistern. The collected water then irrigates the land surrounding the house. Flowers and shrubs native to the area blend the property into the surrounding rural landscape.

HOUSE # 1 (20 room energy guzzling mansion) is outside of Nashville, Tennessee. It is the abode of that renowned environmentalist (and filmmaker) Al Gore.

HOUSE # 2 (model eco-friendly house) is on a ranch near Crawford, Texas. Also known as "the Texas White House," it is the private residence of the President of the United States, George W. Bush.

So whose house is gentler on the environment? Yet another story you WON'T hear on CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC or read about in the New York Times or the Washington Post. Indeed, for Mr. Gore, it's truly "an inconvenient truth."

to be "fair"
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

Origins: The above-quoted 2007 report from the Tennessee Center for Policy Research (TCPR), claiming that Al Gore's Tennessee home uses over 20 times more energy than the average U.S. home, was released the day after the former vice-president's film about global warming, An Inconvenient Truth, won an Academy Award for Best Documentary.

The specific numbers involved were disputable (the TCPR claimed Gore's home uses electricity at a rate more than "20 times the national average," while the Associated Press reported that its own review of bills indicated that the Gores' Nashville household used more than 12 times the average for a typical household in that area), but the basic gist of the claim — that the Gores' Nashville residence consumed a larger proportion of energy than the average American home — was true.

Some important points not covered in the report, however, was whether equating the Gores' home to the average American home was really a relevant comparison. A spokesperson for the Gore family responded by noting some mitigating factors, such as the fact that the Gores' Nashville residence isn't an "average" house — it's about four times larger than the average new American home built in 2006, and it essentially functions as both a residence and a business office since both Al and Tipper work out of their home. The Tennessean also noted that the Gores had been paying a $432 per month premium on their monthly electricity bills in order to obtain some of their electricity from "green" sources (i.e., solar or other renewable energy sources). Other factors (such as the climate in the area where the home is located and its size) make the Gore home's energy usage comparable to that of other homes in the same area.

The former vice-president maintained that comparing raw energy-usage figures is misleading and that he leads what he advocates, a "carbon-neutral lifestyle," by purchasing energy from renewable energy sources such as solar, wind and methane gas to balance out the carbon emissions produced in generating the electricity his home uses:
Kalee Kreider, a spokesperson for the Gores, pointed out that both Al and Tipper Gore work out of their home and she argued that "the bottom line is that every family has a different carbon footprint. And what Vice President Gore has asked is for families to calculate that footprint and take steps to reduce and offset it."

A carbon footprint is a calculation of the CO2 fossil fuel emissions each person is responsible for, either directly because of his or her transportation and energy consumption or indirectly because of the manufacture and eventual breakdown of products he or she uses.

The vice president has done that, Kreider argues, and the family tries to offset that carbon footprint by purchasing their power through the local Green Power Switch program — electricity generated through renewable resources such as solar, wind, and methane gas, which create less waste and pollution. "In addition, they are in the midst of installing solar panels on their home, which will enable them to use less power," Kreider added. "They also use compact fluorescent bulbs and other energy efficiency measures and then they purchase offsets for their carbon emissions to bring their carbon footprint down to zero."
Also, by the end of 2007 the Gores completed renovations that made their home much more energy-efficient:
Al Gore, who was criticized for high electric bills at his Tennessee mansion, has completed a host of improvements to make the home more energy efficient, and a building-industry group has praised the house as one of the nation's most environmentally friendly.

The former vice president has installed solar panels, a rainwater-collection system and geothermal heating. He also replaced all incandescent lights with compact fluorescent or light-emitting diode bulbs.

"Short of tearing it down and staring anew, I don't know how it could have been rated any higher," said Kim Shinn of the U.S. Green Building Council, which gave the house its second-highest rating for sustainable design.

Gore's improvements cut the home's summer electrical consumption by 11 percent compared with a year ago, according to utility records reviewed by The Associated Press. Most Nashville homes used 20 percent to 30 percent more electricity during the same period because of a record heat wave.
Last updated: 28 September 2009

Interesting stuff.

We just got our last gas bill, which includes the use of heat. In our part of SoCal, central heat is actually rather rare. In the small homes, 1200sq, they put in these gas burners that sat in the hall floor and spanned into the living room space. They actually did a fair job. But their limit was their limit. Our old house had an addition on the front; a living room extension. Really helped open up that floor plan. However, the heat couldn't reach it. That addition upped the house by 200sq (10X20).

Our house has central heat, it is also 2600sq! Nearly TWICE the size of our old house. Since this was the first month that we actually used the heat, our bill did go up... To $13.00!

Electric bill time!

Our solar electric is older, about 10 or 11 years now. I don't remember brand names of hand, when I go to the garage next, I will check the inverters.

However, when I checked recently, it was peak of day, sun was out and skies clear. Both of our computers were on, so was bastets big copier/printer, but not in use, and I think the freezer was kicked in. No lights on. The meter was still going backwards!

We got our first bill, tho. It spanned the time from 5-Aug-2011 to sometime in November, 101 days, total.

For that period, $118.00. That is working out to $35 a month for electric. About half of our old bill. I will confirm that estimate.

I confirmed... our $118.00 electric bill is for 101 days; our old bill was $118.00 a MONTH.

I'm thinking about hooking up a fan to our electric meter.

A fan to cool it? Or a fan on the rotating disc so as to get free cooling?

That does not sound good either way, Brad.

Nice numbers, Andy. I'm interested in your maintenance costs for the system...forthcoming.

Apparently, not much.

The prior owner had the system installed in 2000 or 2001. It was inspected within the last year as part of the sale. Nothing was done then.

If anything costs, it will be new inverters for the the electric side of things... and they are about $2k each.

Our electric bill runs between $200-$360/month. Nature of the beast here. In the hot summers it's the A/C, and in the cold winters, it's the furnace fan and humidifier and a little heat in the garage. On top of all the TV's, refrigerators, freezer, computers, ad nauseum. Gas bill is $25-$30/month most of the time, but in January and February it is usually over $100.

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Wow. I thought Andy's $118/m wasn't good.

Here - $52 summer, $65 winter.

Yes, this is one reason why I don't have a new ZR1 ;-)

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So if you cut your bill in half to $150 with solar and a 5 year pay off, you could pay off the ZR1 in 2040 ?

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Har! Great idea, but first we need to get some sun here :-P

wind is yer friend.

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Like Altamount?

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I should probably unplug some stuff, and look into some more efficient appliances. The garage refrigerator is about 15 years old, and the one in the basement is almost 25. Our upright freezer is 26 or 27. Then there's 9 TV's, 4 stereos and a few computers. And the little electric heater for the garage - I should run a duct out there, or look into a gas heater. But what I'd really like to unplug is the alarm clock.