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| Dale1990 | How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Old thread 86 Vette. 383. 113 heads done by LPE in the early 90s.
Thanks to numerous other projects (fuel pumps, heater cores, life, etc) I'm finally back to this project. Since I'm not totally sure what I'm doing, I'm adding a bunch of pics so if anyone sees anything amiss, please let me know - click for ginormous size. I pulled the old spring out. I'm no expert but I think this might be bad...  Hi-ResHere is a shot of the underside of the rocker. I don't see any evidence of impact...  Hi_Res Here is the valve w/o the spring or rocker. I tried to get as close to the tip as I could (I'd like a macro lens for this). I'm not sure what a valve float strike would look like but this looks kinda normal to me. Any other ideas?  Hi-Res Now for the questions. Here is a shot of the valve spring mic installed. There is no up/down movement of the valve. The cap and keys are installed but the oil shield is not. Am I doing this right? If so, I get about 1.94". Does that make sense? EDIT: I measured with the shims in place. I suppose a real measurement would need those taken out.  Hi-Res I haven't taken a spring in to check the open/closed pressure yet. Any ideas or advice is welcome. Thanks! |
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Posted on: 2010/7/30 22:07
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| bogus | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
 
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I agree, the spring is broken.
The rest looks fine... you dodged a bullet there. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 0:12
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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| Weavsvet | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Just one more reason I prefer double springs.
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 1:56
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1996 Corvette Coupe,AFR 195 street Eliminators,Edelbrock LT4 Air Gap intake manifold,9.5" 2800 stall,TPIS LT headers,Bullet 226/230.565.565/111 lsa cam,1.7 Scorpion rr's,EWP, X Pipe, Stock Exhaust,Elec.Cutouts,Dana 44/3.45, Tune by Wester's Garage |
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| Dale1990 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Better lucky than good, sometimes.
 I would guess if it wasn't for the inner spring (damper?) it would have eaten the valve and I'd have a whole world of hurt. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 1:57
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86 Coupe: SR 383 90 Convertible: Stock L98 06 Z06: Stock LS7 |
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| rklessdriver | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Those little 1.250" dia springs usually set up around 1.750". Depending on which spring they have 45lbs (stock) to 110lbs (Z28) seat pressure....
Some of the solid lifter flat tappet oval track ones (sold as .600 lift ones)set up at 1.800". They have 125lbs seat pressure. 1.940" set up height is way too tall... Also the shims go under the spring seat - not on top of it. What does the bottom of the retainer look like??? The O-Ring oil seal looks like its been getting squished pretty good between the retainer and the top of the guide.... Will |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 2:03
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| Dale1990 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
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Pic of cap and oil shield...
 Hi-Res For fun, here is the head and valve w/o the shim or spring seat...  Hi-Res I put the shim under the spring seat although I don't really like how loose it fits there. I remeasured and got a better look at the mic this time and I get 1.946". Pic of what I'm doing is below. Shim is sitting directly on the head, spring seat on the shim, mic on the seat, cap sits in a groove on the mic (see pics in first post), keys are seated on the valve tip (like all the other valves), busted spring is there for reference. No up/down play, valve is snugly closed. If my numbers don't make sense then what am I doing wrong? Bear in mind this is first time I have ever touched a valve mic so be gentle  Hi-Res |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 3:05
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| vis_croceus | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Not sure what the point of this exercise is - if you don't know what springs you have, then what does measuring the height they were installed at accomplish?
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 5:00
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94 vert 
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| vis_croceus | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Quote:
Would a Melling VS-730 fit that head? OD=1.22, installed height=1.946 He mentioned Melling in his other thread, so I just looked at their catalog... |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 5:04
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| Dale1990 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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It was suggested in the other thread that this info would be needed to choose the right springs.
I can get the Melling part# that we installed last time we broke a spring if it would help. It won't be until maybe Monday or Tuesday, though. To be blunt, all I want to know is what springs I need for this engine. So far I've managed to break one of the originals that LPE put on and one of their replacements. LPE said they were stock springs - I don't know and I don't trust them at all. All I want is a working engine that doesn't require new springs every 10k miles. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 6:47
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86 Coupe: SR 383 90 Convertible: Stock L98 06 Z06: Stock LS7 |
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| PeteK | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Quote:
You need to know what the open and closed heights are, and the size of the spring pocket. You have already established that, so you are in good shape there. Maybe I missed it, but what are the cam spec's? With those two pieces of info picking a spring becomes easy. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 12:25
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| Durango_Boy | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Elite Guru
 
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I agree, you cam card will tell you what springs you need every time.
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 15:21
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| Dale1990 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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LPE said the cam is the 219 - they didn't have part numbers way back then, though. The specs should be .560" lift intake/exhaust with 1.6 rr's according to research by Churchkey in the other thread. I'm not opposed to setting up a dial indicator to make sure if it would be better.
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 15:30
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86 Coupe: SR 383 90 Convertible: Stock L98 06 Z06: Stock LS7 |
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| pr0zac | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Elite Guru
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the bottom of the retainer where the spring rides is suppose to be flush with the top of the mic not down inside it. that is probably whats throwing your measurement off.
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 15:34
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96 lt4. 357ci, 11:1, LE 226/232, LE2 LT4 heads, ported LT4 intake, EM Gladiator44, EM LT's, stock exhaust, NX kit. |
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| BrianCunningham | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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nice thing about dampers, that's what saved you.
That's what's BAD about beehive springs. When they break, there's nothing else holding the valve back. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 16:32
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| rklessdriver | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
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Quote:
Absolutely correct. Your spring retainer does not have a large enough OD to work on the mic correctly... It's fitting down in that "machined step" in the middle of the mic.... It should sit on the top edge. At this point you could try and offset the mic to one side a bit so that the retainer catches on the mic in the proper place. You'll have to be careful not to pull it up too tight and cock the retainer. Not sure if the guide is small enough to allow this thou... You could also meaure the depth of the machined step in the mic and subtract it from your 1.940 measurement. Last option is to buy a snap gauge set and a 6" dial caliper and use them to measure the set up height. Dale1990 - I understand your fustration. We are all doing our best to get you the correct info, but you have to understand that I can see the parts you have (which are all stock SBC) except the springs and I know for a fact that there is NO way your measurement can be correct unless the valve stem is broken in 2 peices (and that isn't the case).... Now that I can see the pic of the retainer on the mic from the top - I can verify that Prozac is dead on as to why your measurement is so far off. It's not a big deal, sometimes companies make these tools and they don't always work correctly with the parts we have. Try the suggestions I gave you above. Once you have the set up height measured correctly I can give you a spring part number that will work. Since LPE says the cam is a 219 we will work off that asumption. Your research is correct - .560 lift with 1.6's. Will |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 16:44
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| vis_croceus | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
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Quote:
OK from the way the thread was going I thought you were trying to diagnose the failure. Retainer going down inside is a common issue. Just subtract the distance from the step to the lip. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 18:13
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94 vert
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| Dale1990 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
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Quote:
Thanks guys! That makes sense. I picked up a caliper (Harbor Freight to the rescue) and the step is 0.150" so that makes the height 1.790" then. Sound more reasonable? On a tangent... odd that that machined step fit the cap so well it made sense that the cap should be in there rather than above on the top lip. I did double-check with the caliper and sho-nuff the scale is accurate to the top lip and not the inner step. |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 19:46
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| Stl94LT1 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Guru Newb
 
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[/quote]Thanks guys! That makes sense. I picked up a caliper (Harbor Freight to the rescue) and the step is 0.150" so that makes the height 1.790" then. Sound more reasonable?
[/quote] Much more reasonable.  |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 19:59
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| flyboy | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Elite Guru
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Are you going to be using the oil shields? Just curious.
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 20:22
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'91coupe, LT4Hotcam, some other stuff. If it's too loud, you're too old. "He works on old cars, then junks 'em" |
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| rklessdriver | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
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1.790 is a more realistic measurement... If you add in the .030 thickness of the spring oil sheild - your close to what it should be.
Here are 2 valve springs that will work for you. http://www.competitionproducts.com/Ze ... Valve-Spring/products/56/ They are the same spring except the more expensive one has been electro polished (on the surface) which extends spring life. At 1.790 you'll have about 130lbs seat pressure. Fine for a hyd roller like the LPE 219. At .560 lift you will be at 1.230 which is about 385lbs. Also fine for a hyd roller like the LPE 219. The spring coil binds at 1.100 so you have .130 left in the spring which is plenty. 3 other things: 1. I suggest you get rid of the oil shields. They are unessecary weight that the spring has to carry. No one uses them on performance applications for this reason. 2. Buy a set of hardened valve locks. They are cheap insurance against a dropped valve. http://www.competitionproducts.com/He ... ve-Stem/productinfo/4232/ 3. Get rid of the O-Ring oil seals. Put a set of PC valve guide seals on it. I can see your heads have been cut for them. PC seals reduce oil consumption and reduce weight that the valve spring has to carry. Take the caliper and measure the OD of the guide. It should be .531 or .500 and then buy the correct size seals. http://www.competitionproducts.com/VT ... -Valve-Seals/products/46/ Good luck. Will |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 20:45
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| flyboy | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Elite Guru
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Quote:
You are recommending the P.C.'s for the exhaust valves too then? I had them on mine and then changed back to the umbrellas (on the exhausts), but I think I'm overly cautious . |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 21:06
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| rklessdriver | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Quote:
Yes. I recommend PC seals on Intake and Exhaust. Will |
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Posted on: 2010/7/31 21:12
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| Dale1990 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Cool! Thanks for the recommendations. I'll probably place an order later this week and hopefully get the car back on the road soon. Be nice to drive it instead of look at it.
On the valve locks, do you know if that is $5 per valve, per cylinder or for all 16 valves? The pic suggests per cylinder - 2 valves. |
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Posted on: 2010/8/2 13:12
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86 Coupe: SR 383 90 Convertible: Stock L98 06 Z06: Stock LS7 |
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| rklessdriver | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
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Quote:
Dale Your welcome. Take your time and be sure to double check your set up heights (espc with the new locks). 1.790 to 1.800 is perfect for those springs. If you start getting near 1.770 you will need to use a thinner shim or no shim at all (but you must still use the spring seat/locator)... You don't want to end up with much more than 400lbs open pressure. On the locks - I'm pretty sure they sell them in packs of 16... So you would need to buy 2 packs (32 locks total). Their site use to say for sure and I know it's in my Comp Products book - however I'm in SoCal for business and have no way to look it up for you.... Luckily they are not Summit (or Jegs) and their tech line is actually very knowlegeable about what they sell. They will be able to tell you right away. Will |
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Posted on: 2010/8/3 2:37
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| Dale1990 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Senior Guru
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Sorry to drag this thread back up but I'm finally back to working on this car again.
I have all of the new parts ready to go - springs locks and seals. One final question. Since these shims are supposed to go under the seat/locator, is there a problem with the ID of the shim being so much larger than the guide? Shim ID: 0.8" vs. Guide: 0.55" Thanks! |
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Posted on: 2010/9/6 20:54
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86 Coupe: SR 383 90 Convertible: Stock L98 06 Z06: Stock LS7 |
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| rklessdriver | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Quote:
There is a machined area (step) on the cyl head where they sit called the "spring pocket". It has raised edges in a few places around the spring pocket. I don't think there is a way for the shim to move over enough in any direction to get completely out from under the spring seat/cup. I would prefer to have shims with a smaller inner dia that fit around the guide better - but I think you will be fine re-using what you have. There is not a bunch of stress on on them when located under the spring seat/cup. Will |
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Posted on: 2010/9/8 1:19
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| Dale1990 | Re: How to find the right valve springs... | ||
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Cool! Looks like I'll be able to start back on this thing tomorrow. Be nice to get it back on the road this weekend. Yay!
Thanks! |
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Posted on: 2010/9/8 15:16
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86 Coupe: SR 383 90 Convertible: Stock L98 06 Z06: Stock LS7 |
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