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| dan0617 | Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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On a D-36, what parts are most commonly broken from a hard launch? I'm thinking of buying a few replacement parts used when I see them for sale since I won't be able to afford a solid rear for a long time. I have a few questions, please bear with me as I don't know alot about these rear parts but I'm learning.
1. I know the 1/2 shafts are suspect, and probably the most commonly broken part, so I'm going to get an extra one and take to the track with me when I go. Was considering going to steel 1/2 shafts but I'm afraid that will just make the centersection snap instead of the 1/2 shaft and I'd much rather replace a shaft. What do you guys think? Stay with aluminum and let it be the "fuse" or go steel? 2. I hear about broken spindles. I know nothing about spindles. This is where I need the advice the most. Is it the spindle knuckle or the spindle itself (isn't the spindle itself the part with the spline on one end and the hub and wheel studs on the other?) that breaks? Or both? I was assuming it was the spindle knuckle but the more I look at things I'm guessing it is the spindle itself that snaps. Anyone ever heard of a broken spindle knuckle or is it the spindle that breaks? 3. I hear of cryo treated spindles, are they much better than stock? Would it be worth it for me to have mine cryo'd? Would I get the whole aluminum knuckle done or just the spindle itself. 4. As far as the centersection, I think I'm best to just replace the whole chunk if it breaks. Also don't think it is worth it to have the whole chunk cryo'd but I don't know much about cryo treating. Am I on the right track here or should it be cryo'd for strength too? |
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Posted on: 2009/8/9 18:16
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| Jagdpanzer | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Forum member Josh is quite experienced with the strength and weaknesses of C4 spindles and Dana rear ends.
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 0:54
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| Matatk | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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I'm speaking purely from what I've read, as I've never broken a rear end.
Spindles will snap right in half. Half shafts may twist/snap. U-joints. People say the inside "grenades" but I can't tell you what exactly that means as far as which parts go bad. There are a few guys on here that have experienced breakages personally who should chime in. Sorry I can't give you first hand advice (or rather, I'm happy...lol) Matthew |
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 0:58
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| Josh | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Yeah, I've broken a ton of stuff back there. If you search me on the other site, lots of stuff on there.
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 11:27
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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I'm getting 32spline subaxles
The halfshafts should be OK if I don't hop The diff? I've got a D44, and I'm hoping it will last if I keep away from slicks, if it goes I'm going to try and figure out what I can do and keep it an IRS. A solid axle is OUT for me since I autocross & do HPDE's |
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 13:16
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| rklessdriver | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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All of the external stuff is far stronger than the ring/pinion, carrier and case of a D36.
You will grenade the ring and pinion or break the carrier or housing in half before you can do any damage to a stub axel (spindle) or halfshaft, considering you have a small stall convertered, foot brake, automatic trans. There are things you can do to keep the rear suspension from squating too far and getting negative angle in the halfshafts that will help prevent breaking stub axels and half shaft u-joints. The best solution I saw was a very fast 6spd car a few years ago. Bill B at the ZF Doc also suggested that I do the same thing to my car in addition to all my roll bar/pinion bar work. Basically the guy had built spacers for the rear suspension snubbers so the rear suspension would only squat enough to allow the half shaft to get parallel with the ground and not get any negative angle. A simple bump stop extender nothing more. More involved solutions/additions are solid bat wing bushings and pinion snubbers to keep the C-Beam from flexing and busting the pinion nose off the housing. If you wanted to try something I would suggest you get some tubing and 1/4" X 2" plate to build the bump stop extenders to try. But I personally don't think you can launch it hard enough to break anything other than the D36 itself, and there is not much you can do to make it stronger as the weakness is inside and IMO the $$$ you would spend to upgrade a D36 would be better spent towards a D44. Will |
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 13:30
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| Josh | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Quote:
I wouldn't worry about the half shafts. I've only ever broken one, and I've broken multiples of everything else. Quote: 2. I hear about broken spindles. I know nothing about spindles. This is where I need the advice the most. Is it the spindle knuckle or the spindle itself (isn't the spindle itself the part with the spline on one end and the hub and wheel studs on the other?) that breaks? The spindle (or outer stub axle) was the most common failure on my car. I broke half a dozen of them or so. It's the part that bolts to the wheel side of the half shaft. They break right at the base of the splines. When they do break, they take out the wheel bearing and ABS sensor. It's theoretically possible that it could take out the knuckle as well, but it never happened to me. Quote: I was assuming it was the spindle knuckle but the more I look at things I'm guessing it is the spindle itself that snaps. Anyone ever heard of a broken spindle knuckle or is it the spindle that breaks? I've never heard of the knuckle being called a spindle knuckle, but terminology varies from place to place. For the sake of simplicity, we'll identify some terms: Inner stub axle - The piece that bolts to the differental side of the half shaft. It goes into the differential and uses splines to connect it to the carrier. Half shaft - Everyone is on the same page here. Outer stub axle - The piece that has been somehow named spindle by the Internet. It bolts to the wheel side of the half shaft. Knuckle - The large aluminum piece that the wheel bearing installs in. All of the rear suspension pieces attach here. Carrier - The unit that bolts to the ring gear and turns the inner stub axles. This is most commonly some kind of posi-traction unit, but there are some spool options available. Anyway, the outer stub axle is a pretty common failure. Like I said, I broke half a dozen of them. Quote: 3. I hear of cryo treated spindles, are they much better than stock? Would it be worth it for me to have mine cryo'd? Would I get the whole aluminum knuckle done or just the spindle itself. Cryo treating made no difference for me. I broke cryo'd parts at the same rate as the stock pieces. If you do decide to cryo parts, you wouldn't need to do the knuckle, just the spindle. Quote: 4. As far as the centersection, I think I'm best to just replace the whole chunk if it breaks. Also don't think it is worth it to have the whole chunk cryo'd but I don't know much about cryo treating. Am I on the right track here or should it be cryo'd for strength too? I had mine done, it made no difference. I broke cryo'd gears, cryo'd spindles, a cryo'd half shaft, etc... I wouldn't cryo much of anything any more, especially on a D36. IMO, the first thing you break will be inside the diff. Either ring/pinion, spider gears, clutches, etc... Any of those would be my guess. At that point, it might take out the case, or might not. I broke a ring gear and my case survived, but I've seen others where the shrapnel takes out the case. Regardless, most of the stuff back there takes a good bit of time to change, and a good number of tools. I don't know that it would be practical to buy spares with the intent of swapping them out at the track in the event of a failure. With your auto, and a D44 swap, I think you'd be good with low 1.5's forever. You might crush U-joints from time to time, but the auto is pretty forgiving. Jonescap is cutting mid 1.5's (with a best of 1.51) on his stock D44, and he is a nitrous 6 speed car. I really don't think the power you are making is an issue, especially behind the auto. If I were you, I would start to save for a D44, and just enjoy the car for now. Wait for the first failure to happen, and then go from there. If it's the chunk, then pull the trigger on the D44 swap. As far as a solid axle, IMO there aren't any options out there. The Azzato piece is just too questionable for me, and the Leo Barnaby (RIP) unit is outrageously expensive. Good luck with it. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 13:42
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| Josh | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Lol, that was me that told Bill about that years ago, lol. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 13:45
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| dan0617 | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Thanks for the part clarification and advice, that helps alot! I was thinking the 1/2 shaft would be the most suspect and I know I can swap one of those out at the track fairly easily. Sounds like the spindle, or outer stub axle, is most prone to break. I'll have to look up what all needs done to change one of those.
I am running mid 1.5 60' times at the track, and that is standing it up on the converter to about 2K rpms, then rolling the pedal to the floor fairly easily, then hitting the spray about 1/2 second after my foot makes it to the floor. I'm sure if I just nailed it to the floor on launch, then hit the spray after getting it to the floor, I'd run in the low 1.4's. A launch on the spray would be phenomenal, but I know I'm going to have to stick to the mid 1.5's with the D-36. I honestly was thinking the case would be stronger than the 1/2 shafts and spindles but it sounds like not. At this point I'll look into how hard/time consuming it is to swap spindles, then I'll buy a used 1/2 shaft, maybe a spindle, and then just run it till it breaks something. If it's the case, I'll likely have to swap to a D-44 since I know a solid rear conversion is not even in the 2 year plan with my budget. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 15:00
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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i havent broke anything yet, but i plan on it!
some good stuff in this thread..... |
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 18:31
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| Jagdpanzer | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Posted on: 2009/8/10 20:19
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| vetteoz | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Josh wrote: Parts Josh prepared earlier [IMG]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u309/vetteoz/Spindles.jpg[/IMG] Quote:
Mine after following Josh's advice.Buddy got a little carried away with the s/s bar but they won't bend anytime soon [IMG]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u309/vetteoz/bumpstop.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2009/8/11 2:10
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| dan0617 | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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How long are those snubber extensions, and how do they attach? I didn't realize the car could squat far enough to need those.
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Posted on: 2009/8/12 17:39
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| Josh | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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On my car, the length needed was exactly one inch. I used some square tubing and a longer bolt to move the snubber down. Just go look at the snubber and try to picture a way to move it down 1 inch. It's easy to understand how to do it if you are looking at the part.
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Posted on: 2009/8/12 19:14
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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sounds like a good idea
Of course once your on them, it's a solid suspension. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/12 19:29
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| vetteoz | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Mine shown are on a '87 so the distance may be different on the later knuckles. 1.7" spacer puts halfshaft dead level |
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Posted on: 2009/8/13 0:05
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| dan0617 | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll look into the snubber extensions first chance I get.
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Posted on: 2009/8/13 15:29
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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I don't really see the point of those, there's no torque on the knuckle.
Any squat you get would just be from the weight transfer minus whatever anti-squat the dogbones offer. Now if you want to prevent snapping the case you need a snubber on it or some other way to restrain it's rotation besides the C-beam. I was thinking some links from the lower case bolts to the back of the car would triangulate the entire rear end and distribute the reactionary forces on the diff more, instead of the snout taking all of it. The C-beam translates that diff torque into a tensile force on the top of the snout which pulls it right off. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/13 17:24
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| dan0617 | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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CC, I think the snubber extensions keep the car from squatting quite as low on launch, which keeps the 1/2 shafts level instead of going at an upward angle from the case to the wheel. That in turn takes a little stress, or binding if you will, off of the u-joints, 1/2 shafts and possibly spindles. I don't think from what I've gathered here that they would help save the case in any way.
That being said, I would love to try something to help strengthen the case, or technically make the weak case last longer from somehow taking some of the load off of it. What you suggested sounds like it could work, wonder if anyone has tried anything like that. My fear of making something that hasn't been tried before is not having enough flex or movement in necessary places and end up causing the case to snap. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/13 17:33
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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right, they're bump stops not diff snubbers
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Posted on: 2009/8/13 17:55
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| rklessdriver | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Quote:
That being said, I would love to try something to help strengthen the case, or technically make the weak case last longer from somehow taking some of the load off of it. What you suggested sounds like it could work, wonder if anyone has tried anything like that. My fear of making something that hasn't been tried before is not having enough flex or movement in necessary places and end up causing the case to snap. I supported the pinion/C-Beam attachment point on my D44 case with a bar off the shoulder bar on the roll cage. I have pics is my various roll bar threads. IMO this is the strongest way to do it. Will |
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Posted on: 2009/8/13 19:39
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| Steve40th | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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I saw your supported section over the C Beam. Nice idea. Did you ever think of bolting your roll bar in vice welding? Pros/COns? |
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Posted on: 2009/8/14 3:54
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Ko'u ohana aia ku'a ikaika |
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| Steve40th | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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I am going to do the snubber/bump stop on mine. great idea. Mine is 2 inches lowered already. As soon as I get time I will. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/14 3:55
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| CFI-EFI | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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I scanned this thread rather quickly and excuse me if this was mentioned earlier, but other than the actual diff itself, there is nothing different or stronger in a D44 over a D36 suspension. Half shafts, knuckles, spindles, etc. changed somewhat from year to year, but are the same for both a D36 and a D44 for any given year. Any one doing the conversion can save money by not buying and paying for a complete suspension. A complete WILL provide you with spare parts in case of a breakage, but no strength advantage.
RACE ON!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/8/14 14:31
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| Josh | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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You are correct as far as I know. I've broken everything back there, and when acquiring replacement parts I was never asked if the car was a D36 or D44. Half shafts, spindles, knuckles, etc... They are all the same as far as I know.
The center section is different, and the bat wing is different. I don't think any of the suspension mounts or anything else changed. |
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Posted on: 2009/8/14 15:03
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| rklessdriver | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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I did want to make the tube 2 pieces and have it bolted together (maybe with some way to adjust it) but that was going to be a bigger job than my chassis builder could accomplish in the time alloted so we went for the fixed length welded in deal. Pro/Cons: I think big draw back is you pretty much have to have a roll bar to do it at all. The floor pan isn't very thick or rigid in that location so just attaching it like the old MOPAR's had, isn't going to be very strong. Maybe you could do something from the frame rails on either side of it from underneath but I didn't look at that. As far bolting it in. I don't know how rigid it would/could be. Since I had already pretty much irreversably modified the car by welding the roll bar in it.... I figured the pinion support/snubber bar should be part of that package and welded in so it would be as strong as possible. There is some additional driveline noise transmitted into the cabin. Not a big deal in my car since the motor/exhaust is so freakin loud but someone's honest daily driver you might want to be able to take it out for cruisng to work and road trips. That's about all that comes to mind. Will |
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Posted on: 2009/8/14 18:38
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1984 Corvette. 434 SBC with a Powerglide. Best pass - 8.48@160MPH 1.23 60ft on MT 275/60R15 Radials. 1972 Corvette. LS5 454 BBC with M20 4 speed. Best Pass - Doing good to just pass a gas station. |
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| Steve40th | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Well, I was going to do the bump stop extension modification, but since my Vette is lowered 2 inches approximately, the half shafts are already a little past level, so a bump stop would make it solid right now. I guess I need to raise the Vette to get its geometry back to be effective.
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Posted on: 2009/8/20 4:11
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| BrianCunningham | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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Unless your drag racing on slicks this really isn't an issue.
unless of course your leaving the autox starting line with the nose in the air! |
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Posted on: 2009/8/20 13:23
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| dan0617 | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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You guys who have done the bump stop extenders, have you broken any parts since extending them? Have you noticed a reduction in the amount of part breakage? Just wondering how much they have helped.
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Posted on: 2009/8/20 14:46
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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| jonszr1 | Re: Rear end gurus, step inside please. | ||
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i have just put them on my car and it seems to help the 60ft times a little .my car is lowered also so i se them so they only have 1/4 of clearence with the car at rest
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Posted on: 2010/12/6 18:33
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i have a blast playing with my 4 babies 2 zr1s and 2 mustangs 68 coupe with a jon bennit 408 art car fully rollered c4 with a gearvendors over drive .88 mustang built by my kids with a ported lt5 and a bill boudreau blue printed zf 6 spd. with these 4 ... |
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