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PeteK | What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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I made a post yesterday about my not very old 383 puffing out of the crankcase like a choo-choo train. Only 1 thing can do that, and it's blow by. In spite of that, and with a shitty tune up, it runs low 12's on a so, so (weather) day, amd cuts 1.6xx 60' times. 28 MPG on a long trip and overall, is a pleasure to drive.
In a perfect world, I would like to maintain all I have that is positive, (things listed above, idle quality milage, overall reliability, etc), and step it up just a bit. The goal would be 11.40 on a perfect weather day, and 11.80 in the heat of the summer. Going faster is not a big concern, as I don't wish to cage the car. On a friday night street race (at the strip) or a special event, I can squirt it and run an 10.70 or better. My current combo is a 383, super ram, auto 2400 stall, 3:33 gear, and full weight. I am thinking a 396 upgrade. Keep the super ram. Put my good 2800 lightweight torque converter in, and toss my 3:45 pumpkin in the back. What does the guru think? |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 12:06
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Midnight85 | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Guru
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If it were me I'd drop in an LS6. Driveability, economy, and should come close to your goal at the track without any mods.
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 12:28
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HORSEPOWER! Some is good, more is better, too much is just right. |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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If they were not so much work to swap, I definately would. The LS series flat out work. Even from the factory, the cylinder heads flow like toilets.
I forgot to mention that I also have a set of new 195 AFR Elininators in the box, sitting on the shelf. Ricky say's his flowed like 295, and my current, ported Edelbrocks flow 245 or so. Another piece of ammo for the new bullet. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 12:32
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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Midnight85 | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Guru
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In that case, go BIG! There's no substitute for cubic inches.
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 12:38
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HORSEPOWER! Some is good, more is better, too much is just right. |
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dan0617 | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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If I were you, and could afford a new block and such, I'd do a 434. Put that superram, 195 eliminators and a decent cam in there and you would have stocklike street manners and a serious torque monster. But.....
You will likely snap the independent rear, even if it is a D44, with all that torque. With a 383 with the eliminators and superram and combo you have, 11.40's will be a stretch (likely doable with everything matched and dialed right in), but 11.80's are easily do-able. Of course a huge cam and stall converter would put you in the 10's but goodbye street manners. My combo isn't all that far from yours, and I just ran a 12.08. That's with a tune that is still getting better and better with changes, and a 3520 lb raceweight, and 3.07 gears. My cam is a 230/236 flat tappet, probably giving up .1 or .2 by running a flat tappet too. If you can do the 396 with the 195 eliminators and get a cam and converter stall matched up good but not too small to over torque the rear but not too big to kill street manners I would think you would be running 11.40's or better all day long. A 230 duration cam, .575 lift, 2800 stall, 3.45 gears, should be an awesome combo in a 396 with great street manners. JMHO. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 14:07
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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88BlackZ51 | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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Pete.
If you do a search on the CF (not sure if i posted the flow #'s on this forum or not). I believe my street ports flowed in the 28x cfm range, but more then the Edelbrocks anyways. You could always freshen that motor of yours, and throw on the eliminators and see if that meets your goal. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 14:55
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BeachBum | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Master Guru
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Pete, I pretty much agree on that LS7 thing..... pushrod technology works of art is what those motors are. But, without even trying hard, one of those motors would take you well beyond your 11.50 limitation..... you'd be running 10's in your sleep with one of them.
Considering what your goal is, I think you're their already with your 383 Superram motor.... freshen up the motor, put the good cylinder heads on with the slightly looser converter, and you'll easily run mid 11's, and maybe even accidently low 11's. Considering you already own it all.... its the cheap route to your goal as well. I ran a best of 11.32 @ 119 mph with a 1.52 60 ft with an identical set-up at a raceweight of 3300 lbs on a 700 ft midwest track in 70 degree air. I have no doubt with a fresh motor and upgraded converter, you would too. In 80-90 degree summer air, I ran 11.4's and 11.5's all day long. good luck with whatever you choose ! |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 17:36
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863 cubic inches of C4 & C6 muscle C6 Corvette Z06 - Lemans Metallic Blue C4 Corvette 436 - Pure Black http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3933547 ... chevrolet-corvette/page-1 |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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Quote:
Your thoughts mirror mine. Not from a budget point of view, but from an objective one. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 17:38
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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BeachBum | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Master Guru
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Quote:
I really loved that motor.... I beat it hard, and it laughed at me and asked for more. Literally 1000+ passes without a fresh'n up. (Over 80,000 miles combined street and strip on it) I think what else is nice about that set-up, is to run hard you do not need a big sloppy converter, a 2600-3200 is just fine. Nor do you need to spin it above 6000 rpm.... great street manners. I wouldn't upgrade to the 3.45 gears unless you're interested in the feel of them.... they didn't prove to be any quicker on the strip than my 3.07's.... but, I did like how the 3.45's felt on the street... made 2nd gear much more usuable around town. More of an objective thing.... but definitely not an et thing. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 17:44
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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Quote:
What cam were you running in that motor? I assume something in the 230 duration (.050)? |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 18:31
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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JDSWHITE93 | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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A mild big cube stroker with a healthy shot of Nitrous would be the ticket for ya.
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 20:43
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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The medium cube 400 in the corner would work well too................
I have a nice roller valvetrain for it. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 20:53
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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BeachBum | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Master Guru
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I ran the popular LPE 219 cam.... which is a .560/.560 with 1.6's - 219/219 @ .050" 112lsa cam..... for whatever reasons, that cam seems to work well for applications up to 6000 rpm. I think a 230ish cam would have made a little more HP at an expense of torque at 4000-5000 rpm, but not sure, never ran one.
This cam created a HP peak of about 5700 rpm.... Here is an early dyno of the set-up.... ton of torque as you would expect. When this dyno was done, I was typically running 11.5-11.6 @ 116 mph..... I found more power out of it later on with a cylinder head change which gave me another 2-3 mph.....thus I assume it made around 380 rwhp at the end, but do not know, didn't put it on the dyno. Wish I had, would have been interesting to see what it did. (Ignore the squiggly lines on this, that is just my doodling, the 383-SR-219 dyno line is the one that ends at 6200 rpm) [IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/scan0001-1.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 21:01
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_________________
863 cubic inches of C4 & C6 muscle C6 Corvette Z06 - Lemans Metallic Blue C4 Corvette 436 - Pure Black http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3933547 ... chevrolet-corvette/page-1 |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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I am running the same 219 currently, but I never had enough cylinder head, converter, or tune up for it. 1 less thing to buy if I do the 383. Thanks for the info.
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Posted on: 2009/9/22 21:32
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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anesthes | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Master Guru
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Quote:
I just did a 412. If I were to do it again, I'd probably have grabbed one of those dart blocks from summit for $1400. By the time I finished with all the machine work and "fixes" to the stock 400 block to make it "bulletproof", I had spend within a hundred or so of an aftermarket block anyhow - AND the dart blocks are already set up for OE roller cams. The idea behind the 400+ for me was get away with a bigger cam, go fast, but not have to spin it over 6,000 RPM. I'll let you know if that plan works out. -- Joe |
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Posted on: 2009/9/23 1:51
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bogus | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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All aluminum big block. With a super charger.
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Posted on: 2009/9/23 2:59
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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BrianCunningham | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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boost it!
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Posted on: 2009/9/23 14:19
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_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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BeachBum | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Master Guru
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If the 383/406 SR-219 combination doesn't make your cut.... Here's a few ideas.
- Turbo V6 Buick (I have personally been beaten down at the track by a few of them over the years) - Big Block - with a goal of 100% streetability... run a hyd roller, 6000 rpm, huge torque 650-700 HP, perfect streetability - Exotic air intercooled German or Italian engine (pick one.... hopped up, they all can make impressive power) - Twin in-line 4 cylinder motors on boost..... not sure if you could shoehorn it in, but you'd be the talk of the town. - Outboard Mercruiser motor..... I don't even know what that is, but it sure sounds cool. - Electric Motor - with the right servo's and enough big-ass batteries, you could run single digits, albeit your driving range, might be better classified in feet rather than miles. - Warp Drive - Not sure if they're on the market yet, but I've heard with a loose converter, they're doing the 1/4 in .000342 seconds, on the bottle, .000320's (you'll need a rollcage) I have other great ideas, just let me know if you're interested in more of them. :tongue: |
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Posted on: 2009/9/23 14:32
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mseven | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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The next time around for me I think I would consider just going bbc, maybe a 502 or 572?? If it has to stay small block based on existing parts (headers, fabbing etc.)I agree on starting with an aftermarket block, less initial work/money and more options in the future.
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Posted on: 2009/9/23 14:36
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bogus | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Quote:
I have seen this, and it looks good. Quote:
My original suggestion. Quote:
I wonder if a Benz TT V12 could be made to fit? No mods, 620hp. I bet it would cost $30k tho... Quote:
Straight 8? Why not rename it "Packard Caribbean?" Quote:
Wrong type of Corvette. Quote:
There is this little Toyota up in Seattle with an electric motor... turning 11s. Quote:
This gets into too many questions about relativity. Would he be so fast that he would arrive after he left or before? Or would everyone age 20 years, rendering the entire exercise moot? |
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Posted on: 2009/9/24 2:00
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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BeachBum | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Master Guru
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Quote:
lol... yeap, there's always a problem with those warp drives & time !.... the last one I had, I raced it, when I got back to the pits, it was 1984 and I didn't own my vette anymore.... had to walk home that night. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/24 3:47
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Steve40th | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Elite Guru
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Freshen the 383 to a 388, new pistons and standard rings vie low tension. LPE cam, superram and a tune. The tune for that combo has been beat to death. I bet LPE has them sitting on the shelf. LPE;s are sick fast and are super smooth with that camshaft, LPE 219. Sleeper.
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Posted on: 2009/9/24 6:16
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Ko'u ohana aia ku'a ikaika |
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BrianCunningham | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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on a serious note, I'd take it apart and see why it's blowing smoke.
See if it's a cracked piston or just a ring. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/24 16:49
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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dan0617 | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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Quote:
LOL! I just spit beer out my nose! |
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Posted on: 2009/9/24 17:18
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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dan0617 | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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Quote:
I would have to agree that for sure your goals will be attainable by freshening your combo, then sticking the AFR 195's on it. Would be the cheapest since you already have the cam. Maybe go up a hair on your converter stall. But, you know you can't take your eyes off that 400+ cuber sitting there waiting to catapult the 'vette down the strip. A hair more cam, a hair more converter stall, and a miniram. Blow your goals out of the water! I have the 230/236 cam and a HSR intake and AFR 195's and am running about the same times as you. I know my car is heavier, and gearing is hurting me a little, and it is a flat tappet cam and isn't dialed in yet but even then the gap between us won't be that much. I almost wish I'd have done the 219 cam..... Either way, let us know what you decide! U planning on doing this rebuild this year, or is this a winter project? |
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Posted on: 2009/9/24 17:24
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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BeachBum | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Master Guru
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Something else that somebody might find interesting that I should mention on this dyno graph.... that handwritten HP graph that peaks right around 4700 rpm was a friends 383, manual transmission TPI motor with ASM runners and Edelbrock cylinder heads..... I think it was a compcams 224/224 cam......
His motor was dynoed on the same dyno.... I handwrote his graph in to get a visual of the differences between the two set-ups. He didn't have the big torque peak off-idle due to his manual transmission. That motor was typically a mid 12 second car with traps in the 110-112 area in his 3300 lb C4 on street tires. [IMG]http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc342/tldrane/scan0001-1.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2009/9/24 20:54
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1989GTA | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Guru
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Well Pete as the others have said you already have the parts to reach your goals. The SuperRam needs to be opened up in the runners and the intake manifold itself. We have an intake manifold over at Dr J's for porting and he expects to get 320cfm from it.
That would feed those AFR 195 head's quite nicely. By the way we got 290 cfm from one without to much trouble. Get a decent camshaft, good exhaust and cold air intake system for the supporting mods and your goals will easily be reached. I would take some time looking at a camshaft. I'm currently running a 228/228 camshaft and I'm pleasantly surprise at how docile it is. I have the idle set at 775 rpm. It would also be somewhat of a sleeper with the "old school" SuperRam. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/24 22:57
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bogus | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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hm... I think it's time to use the C5R/C6.r engine building plan.
Thanks to the restrictors, the 7 litre is limited to about 5400 RPM. Yet it still generates huge power - 620hp! And tons to torque. Think about a big small block, with all the right bits, but a torque monster SuperRam intake. Sure, it will only red line at 5500 RPM, but think of the torque!!! |
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Posted on: 2009/9/26 16:58
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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Randyj75 | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Guru Newb
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Pete,
I don't think you would be happy w/ just a rebuilt; go w/ the 406, or do what Joe recommends and go w/ the aftermarket block. A 406 w/ AFR's and Super Ram would be a killer. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/26 21:54
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'90 Corvette, M6,a few mods, more to come |
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tpi421vett | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Registered Vendor
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Hi Pete, If you are going to use your existing 350 block, you could put a 4.00" stroke in it and make a 408.2 (409). I have done several, and with a super ram and some AFR 195's it would be a torque monster.
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 4:46
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AFR Dealer, can sell at prices too low to advertise. 801-953-6391 08 C6 LS3,3LT,Z51,A6,NPP 91 vette,450ci, AFR 220, miniram,FAST, Crane 252/260 solid roller, 200 shot nos, ZF6, 4 link, 9", DA corrected to 1300 ft 9.65@145.xx 450ci now with AFR 235... |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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Quote:
I did kick this around a couple of years ago, but was afraid the additional stroke would cause build headaches. A 396 requires so much more grinding than a 383, and I assumed a 4 inch stroke would be near impossible. I imagine block fill, and a slim set of I Beam rods at a minimum? |
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 13:14
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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Quote:
I will, but I will likely do it last, rather than first. I have 3 or 4 blocks,and enough parts to put together 3, 383's and 1 406 (in the garage currently). The motor in the car now has cast (hyper's) pistons, so I suspect the piston is not broken. They explode like the rear window of a car when they break. I am guessing that I find a not so good hone job when it comes apart. It has never been "right" from day 1. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 13:22
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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BillH | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
The Stig Moderator
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Build something with that has a little bit of torque:
Attach file: tankcar_8.jpg (0.00 KB) |
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 16:50
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Every man dies but not every man lives. |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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Quote:
I did bost the old 383 in about 2002. I did not care for it at all, so I sold the package. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 17:08
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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BrianCunningham | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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Quote:
You were spraying Hyper pistons???? |
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 17:14
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_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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Quote:
Only for about 15 years or so. They hold up well as long as they don't go lean. I have not sprayed the hurt 383 in the car now. In the old days, finding a reasonably priced forged piston for a 383 with 58cc heads was not possible. In the mid 90's, the aftermarket was so limited that a custom forged piston was the only option. In the late 90's SRP and others had $500-$600 piston sets, but hypers were selling for $115 a set. Because I have been lucky with them, I continued to use them. If I step up the power package, I may finally break down and buy a good piston. |
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 17:23
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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I just noticed that the amount of views on this thread is 406. Must be a sign from above.
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 18:33
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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BrianCunningham | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Senior Guru
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All your potential customers
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 18:44
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_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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tpi421vett | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Registered Vendor
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Hi Pete, 409's aren't that bad to build. It will take a low fill on the block,and some good stroker rods. You could have your rod journals turned down to 2.00" and use a small journal rod vs a standard large journal rod(2.100") to make it easier. There is 2 ways to do the piston height and rod length combo. You can use a 6.0" length rod with a 1.00" compression height piston. Or you can use a 1.150" compression height piston and a 5.85" rod.The block doesn't need that much more work than clearancing it for a 396 (3.875" stroke). And a .900 base circle cam will work. Just check clearance on everything close during assembly. And you will have to clearance the oil pan gasket. And I use a Canton,or other brand stroker oil pan. I haven't tried a stock pan on a 4.0 stroke, but the Canton pan makes it easy. I think a 4" stroke SBC with a super ram, some AFR 195's, you would have some serious torque, and still make some decent hp.
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Posted on: 2009/9/28 22:52
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AFR Dealer, can sell at prices too low to advertise. 801-953-6391 08 C6 LS3,3LT,Z51,A6,NPP 91 vette,450ci, AFR 220, miniram,FAST, Crane 252/260 solid roller, 200 shot nos, ZF6, 4 link, 9", DA corrected to 1300 ft 9.65@145.xx 450ci now with AFR 235... |
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PeteK | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Moderator
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Well, after a few weeks of pondering it, I am pretty sure the 406 is going in it.
I am going to do all the machine work to the blocks I have laying around, and put together 2 or 3 383 short blocks, and sell them. With the funds I generate, I will likely start to put together a 421 for a back up. It's a sickness If anyone is interested, I can do a photo build up, like I just did with the trans build. This will be a part time build, so it won't go together super quick. |
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Posted on: 2009/10/10 15:50
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"It was really on a pass until it came apart." "Yeah. They always are." |
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bogus | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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cool!!!
Ok... your avatar... what did you do???? |
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Posted on: 2009/10/10 17:13
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_________________
The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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Durango_Boy | Re: What Engine Would The Guru's Build? | ||
Elite Guru
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I've been toying with the idea of getting an after market aluminum 427 roller block and building a modern solid roller version of an L88. I'd try to mimic the original specs down to the compression and cam specs...even though it'd be a roller instead of flat tappet. I'd also make use of modern piston designs and ring packs...better flowing heads and intake, and probably a TB fuel injection setup on top.
Now all I need is $35K. |
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Posted on: 2009/10/10 17:32
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