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| wilsonbh | Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Guru Newb
 
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I just replaced my WP with a Meziere HD Electric WP and what a nice piece of equipment this is. My opinion is GM should have used an electric WP instead of the mechanical one.
 I'd like to flush out my system because the water looks a little grungy to me. Was wondering if I could pull the two lines off the container near the window on the passenger's side. The electric pump generates a nice flow on the top line. I was thinking of having that line drain the system down while the other line pulls in good coolant? Any advice? Thanks..... Billy |
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Posted on: 2008/1/9 23:34
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1994 LT1 Coupe, Automatic, Hypertech Tuned/160 mod, K&N Filter Meziere HD Electric WP, MSD Optispark, Copper Metallic |
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| Strick | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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I thought I answered you on the other forum. Anyway, this one is better.
edit, I didn't read all of your post. Sorry. When I flush my system, I use a "T" in the heater line and the hose connetor that Prestone sells. I start the water and turn on the pump. Run it until the water is clear. I used to remove the knock sensors and pump water in there using a fitting that allows you to attach a garden hose. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/9 23:41
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92 LT1, 6 speed, 3.54 rear, headers, B&B catback, Hurst shifter, polished ZR1 5 spoke wheels, Meziere electric water pump, other mods. |
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| red_johnny | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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On Sabbatical
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Hmm, this would be a good project for me this summer.
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 0:52
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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I thought I answered you on the other forum. Anyway, this one is better. Strick - glad to see the old avatar back :thumbleft: Wilson - I also ansered over there, yes, you can use those two lines. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 0:55
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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I remove the tstat, disconnect the rad hoses from the radiator, and force feed the system with the garden hose from either radiator hose, then alternate until it comes out clear. This blasts lots of crap out of the system that would otherwise just sit there.
Then I drain it from the block, and refill with distilled/EG mix. Simply replacing the coolant isn't going to knock the junk out of there, Maybe you can use the electric pump to your benefit in flushing. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 1:45
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| vis_croceus | Re: Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Quote:
My opinion is GM should have used an electric WP instead of the mechanical one. Luckily they still have engineers instead of opinion pollsters designing their engines. Quote: When I flush my system, I use a "T" in the heater line and the hose connetor that Prestone sells. I also use the prestone flush kit, with the T in a heater line, and pull off the bottom radiator hose. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 2:04
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| crash | Re: Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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I'd like to flush out my system because the water looks a little grungy to me. Was wondering if I could pull the two lines off the container near the window on the passenger's side. The electric pump generates a nice flow on the top line. I was thinking of having that line drain the system down while the other line pulls in good coolant?
best way to do it is get a bg coolant flush kit it has 2 cans in 1 is coolant cleaner put it in the oolant system drive the car and get it hot then get your flush tee and put it in the heater hose going to the thermostat remove upper hose at radiator hook up garden hose to tee turn water on slowly till you get coolant running out of hose run till clear now for the good part you have to get antifreeze back in the system at a 50/50 mixture or find a shop with a power flush and have them do it the shop i work at it cost $119.95 good luck :thumbright: |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 2:33
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| CentralCoaster | Re: Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Quote:
Quote: And what are your thoughts on electric oil pumps?  Yeah, the simplicity/reliability/cost of the mechanical water pump far outweighs any benefits of going to electric, for the oem at least. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 2:49
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| wilsonbh | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Ask "Strick" about the electric waterpump, or anyone that has one. They are believers, as am I. Never any chance of coolant getting on my brand new MSD opti. And it cools better. It's a no brainer to me....
But you think what you want. Billy |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 9:44
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1994 LT1 Coupe, Automatic, Hypertech Tuned/160 mod, K&N Filter Meziere HD Electric WP, MSD Optispark, Copper Metallic |
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| wilsonbh | Re: Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Quote:
Wow! you are one funny guy!!!  |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 9:49
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1994 LT1 Coupe, Automatic, Hypertech Tuned/160 mod, K&N Filter Meziere HD Electric WP, MSD Optispark, Copper Metallic |
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| CasetheCorvetteman | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Yeah, but he is right on the money. The electric water pump will have alot less life span in terms of hours compared to a well maintained mechanically driven unit, especially in a daily driver. If it was an option that wouldve improved the setup in terms of both performance and practical reliability, they wouldve put an electric unit on there.
Quote: Ask "Strick" about the electric waterpump, or anyone that has one. They are believers, as am I. Never any chance of coolant getting on my brand new MSD opti. And it cools better. It's a no brainer to me.... I can say almost for certain that is all incorrect. There is every bit as much chance of it leaking on the distributor. Its ignorant to try and believe otherwise. If the cooling system is maintained properly in the first place, there is very little chance of rear seal failure. Being that there is very little or no side loading on an LT1 water pump, the rear bearing should also live a very long life provided the seal doesnt allow water leakage to penetrate the bearing. The biggest issue here is most vehicular cooling systems are never maintained properly, and this is what i believe to be the single biggest reason so many components fail prematurely (heater cores, radiators, water pumps, and furthermore, possible premature head gasket deterioration and/or failure). I dont know how many people use a suitable waterpump seal lubricant when they change their coolant, but the factory used it in Corvettes, the Factory service manual specifies it, and that is good enough for me. Ir youre not prepared to properly maintain the system as per the factory recomendations or better, dont expect anything to last. Quote: And it cools better.... This is a fact that id have to say remains to be seen in regular aplications. Cooling isnt just a factor of water flow, its got alot to do with the radiator's ability to disapate heat from the coolant that flows through it. If youre using a stock LT1 radiator, id be very suprised if it will cool any better no matter what you do. Quote: But you think what you want. Its not so much a matter of thinking what you want, do that by all means, but its more a matter of presented facts. And ive got a fair idea what im talking about. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 10:15
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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If it was an option that wouldve improved the setup in terms of both performance and practical reliability, they wouldve put an electric unit on there . I agree with everything you said except that. Cost is the #1 driver in these types of decisions. If your statement read: "If it was an option that wouldve improved the setup in terms of both performance and practical reliability with no cost impact, they wouldve put an electric unit on there." I'd agree.  |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 16:59
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Electric is more ideal because it can turn a constant speed.
A mechanical pump will underrun at idle, and overrun at redline. A constant speed will be more efficient, rob less HP at higher rpms, and match the cooling needs of the motor better. Obviously being electrically powered takes some of that efficiency away though. Cost and reliability are probably the two factors keeping it from being used from the factory. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 17:38
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| pianoguy | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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This is another timely subject for me, as I'll be replacing all the hoses and flushing the cooling system as well
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 18:09
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| Strick | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Let's talk about pros and cons of electric coolant pumps. First of all, most Corvette owners are going to side with what they have or are stuck with. Not all of us have the ability or knowledge to make this upgrade. Once it's done, just about anybody can remove and replace an electric pump. The manufacturer, Meziere, says these pumps are good for 2500 hours. So, if you average 50 mph that gives you 125,000 miles on an electric pump. I have 20K on mine so far and no problems. Leaks, The LT1/4 has a problem with the OEM water pump leaking through the weep hole do to a design flaw in the rear bearing seal of the water pump, it just wears out quickly. When the LT1 came out it had a vibration problem which GM had to fix by putting weights in the fly wheel. Not all LT1s were created equal and some just had more vibration than others. This is one cause of the rear bearing and seal to wear sooner that designed. Take a look at the drive gear for the OEM pump.
.  Look at all the places where vibration can develope. Not a problem with the electric pump. Cons, the OEM pump fails slowly and you can get home if you notice the leak. But most of us find out when the opti spark begins to fail, from the leak from the water pump, The only real maintenance you can do for your OEM pump is just scheduled coolant flushes. Additives are not suggested by GM. When the electric pump fails, you are out of a cooling system and I hope your cell phone is working. Do you have any advanced notice? I don't know as mine hasn't failed, yet. I would think it would fail like any other electric motor, gets noisey and not as efficent. We'll see. Is it better to have constant flow or increased flow at higher RPMs? Most of us don't drive our Vettes at high rpms, we usually keep it around 2000rpms or so, unless you have a track whore. We need the best cooling at high temps and the A/C running. This is where the electric pump, at constant flow, out shines the manual oem pump. And BTW, our fans are electric. They don't seem to fail on a regular basis. I can't say as fact that the electric pump will give you a small gain in horsepower, but it does make sence that the electric motor is more efficent than the manual set up. How about some extras you do get with an electric pump. After a hard run where the coolant temp is in a higher range, you can cool the engine down by running the pump with the engine off. In stop and go traffic, your temps will be lower due to the constant flow of the electric pump. Couple that with either lower temps for the fans to come on or manual control of the fans and you'll never have problems in a traffic jam. I'm starting to ramble so I'll quit for a while. Yes, I'm a believer in the electri coolant pump as an upgrade over the OEM pump. The OEM pump is fine for the average C4. It took a while for me to see the advantages of the upgrade before I did it |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 18:44
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92 LT1, 6 speed, 3.54 rear, headers, B&B catback, Hurst shifter, polished ZR1 5 spoke wheels, Meziere electric water pump, other mods. |
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| vis_croceus | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Quote:
Performance (i.e. adequate performance under the extreme conditions that cars are subjected to in pre-production testing) is the prime driver for these types of decisions, with reliability #2. Cost in the far distance alongside packaging/maintenance/assembly line issues/supplier issues/etc. If cost was the driver, but otherwise EWP was superior, then you'd see EWP from the factory on more-expensive cars. See any on ZR-1s? Heck, see any on LT1s? They were plenty expensive in their day. And the delta cost for GM to use EWP on every SBC (say, perhaps, that they decided to use them on Gen 3 SBC) would be close to nil. If EWP were produced in the numbers to support OEM production they'd be similarly priced to mechanical pumps. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 19:35
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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I did not mean to say the electric pump is more efficient, it's probably not.
But you gain HP because the electric pump is turning slower than the mechanical pump would be. Higher flow doesn't get you as much extra cooling as you'd think. You get to a point of diminishing returns. The mechanical pump is a compromise to try and cool at idle and high rpms. And of course belt driven pumps have the issue of side loading the shaft and bearings. Personally, I hate electrical shit. It leaves you stranded without warning, and usually can't be inspected. Fuel pump is a perfect example. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 20:35
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| SpectatorRacing | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Ahhh, but you're thinking of one small part of a much larger system.
An electric pump itself may be similar in cost to a mechanical one, but that does not include the wiring, fuses, harness routing, possible increase in alternator capability, etc. Just running another wire is a huge cost to an OEM. Cost isn't always the biggest driver, but it's a helluva lot more important than you think. Otherwise I wouldn't get the crap beat out of me by GM, Ford, and DC purchasing over pennies on components which save people's lives. I've seen performance lose to cost over and over again. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 21:18
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| MK 82 | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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If you switch to the electric pump you can run a cheaper double row timing set. I am still on the fence as to whether or not I will change when I make my radiator and cam swap.
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 21:34
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| vis_croceus | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Quote:
Cost is the #1 driver in these types of decisions. Quote: Cost isn't always the biggest driver...  |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 21:42
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| vis_croceus | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Quote:
An electric pump itself may be similar in cost to a mechanical one, but that does not include the wiring, fuses, harness routing, possible increase in alternator capability, etc. Just running another wire is a huge cost to an OEM. Quote: If cost was the driver, but otherwise EWP was superior, then you'd see EWP from the factory on more-expensive cars. See any...? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 21:43
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| Strick | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Hey guys, let's make this easy. If you don't like the idea of an electric coolant pump, don't change to it. I researched the idea and went to it. Besides this thread was about flushing the cooling system.
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Posted on: 2008/1/10 23:19
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92 LT1, 6 speed, 3.54 rear, headers, B&B catback, Hurst shifter, polished ZR1 5 spoke wheels, Meziere electric water pump, other mods. |
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| vis_croceus | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Quote:
Hey guys, let's make this easy. If you don't like the idea of an electric coolant pump, don't change to it. I researched the idea and went to it. I don't recall seeing or participating in any discussion in this thread of whether somebody likes the EWP or thinks an individual should switch to it. For those swimming in the red herring, the issue being discussed was: Quote: My opinion is GM should have used an electric WP instead of the mechanical one. Quote: Besides this thread was about flushing the cooling system. If you only read the title and not the first post, perhaps. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 1:57
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| Strick | Re: Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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[quote]I just replaced my WP with a Meziere HD Electric WP and what a nice piece of equipment this is. My opinion is GM should have used an electric WP instead of the mechanical one. :banghead]
Hey Vis, if you are going to quote something, quote it all. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 2:22
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92 LT1, 6 speed, 3.54 rear, headers, B&B catback, Hurst shifter, polished ZR1 5 spoke wheels, Meziere electric water pump, other mods. |
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| Qack | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Electric is more ideal because it can turn a constant speed. Not sure constant speed is the "ideal" solution. What I'd want is a coolant pump that would pump just as much water as needed to effectively cool the motor and no more -- and no less. That would be ideal. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 2:32
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| CasetheCorvetteman | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Ok, i have nothing against the electric water pump, i think its a great device.
HOWEVER, there is abit of "i think, therefore i am" going on here in this thread. While there has been many great points raised on both sides, i side with neither the electric nor the mechanical in terms of what is better. I dont care how any of you want to interpret my prevous posts, this is how i have felt from day dot. There is no design fault with the rear pump seal. That is total rubish. Failure of this is lack of correct maintenance, or old age. As i said earlier, and ill go into it further now so you all understand (and im sure some of you allready do) if you dont add apropriate seal lubricant to your cooling system, expect seal failure. No 2 ways about it. Without the lubricant, seals will go hard, and that is when they start to fail. If you leave your coolant in there long engough to get a buildup, its been in way too long, or the concentrate is not right. Then most people are silly enough to pour some sort of alkali based cleaning agent in there, which not only damages the finish on the cooling system (especially aluminum) it also damages the seals. The electric water pump can still leak from the rear, and it can also leak where it mates to the block just the same as a stock unit. If you only get 125,000 miles from the factory original mechanically driven water pump due to rear seal failure, its hard to blame anything other than incorrect of incomplete mainentance. Now im certainly not saying the electric waterpump isnt a good thing, and im not saying its not a good idea. I reckon it is, i wouldnt bother putting one on, but that is just me, and i maintain my cooling system alot better than most do. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 7:08
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| Strick | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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[quote="CasetheCorvetteman"]
The electric water pump can still leak from the rear, and it can also leak where it mates to the block just the same as a stock unit. You are wrong in that there is no place for the Meziere Electric Coolant pump to leak in the rear as this hole which connects the manual pump to the cam driven gear is eliminated. If done correctly, you even eliminate a possible oil leak at the gear driven seal on the timing cover. And we all know that "down under" the oil is on top of the engine. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 15:44
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92 LT1, 6 speed, 3.54 rear, headers, B&B catback, Hurst shifter, polished ZR1 5 spoke wheels, Meziere electric water pump, other mods. |
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| jhammons01 | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Anyone mentioning better coolant flow equating to better cooling is off the mark entirely.
The Heat exchange occurs in the radiator and the ability of the radiator to dissipate the energy of the water flowing through it. To prove my point, go out and get in a traffic jam, watch as the heat builds in the coolant system and then when it is good and hot, rev your motor and see if the added coolant flow cools the system........it won't The only thing that will change the temperature is airflow over the radiator....not coolant passing through the inside. The slightest forward movement will bring the temps down almost 10°. Second, I'd like to point out that only CC has even mentioned using Deionized water when refilling. Understand that even though we have mostly Steel components, Electrolysis is occuring in our cars and that is the reason that your aluminum heater core turns to mush. You've taken an internal water source.....added minerals (by way of using tap water) so that it will carry a good charge, then you've hooked up a DC power supply to it, ensuring that the electrical charge starts to eat away at the walls of whatever metal source they come in contact with. I know it is not real prevalent in C4s but all the newer aluminum component motor builders (including GM later years) have all accepted this fact and recommend that you use Dei water in the system. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 17:15
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| Qack | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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... I'd like to point out that only CC has even mentioned using Deionized water when refilling. ... |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 17:27
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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[quote="Qack"]Quote:
Yes, but a constant speed pump is closer to ideal than the 500-5000 rpm pump it comes with. Obviously, the ideal is somewhere in between. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 21:24
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| Strick | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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[quote="jhammons01"]Anyone mentioning better coolant flow equating to better cooling is off the mark entirely.
The Heat exchange occurs in the radiator and the ability of the radiator to dissipate the energy of the water flowing through it. To prove my point, go out and get in a traffic jam, watch as the heat builds in the coolant system and then when it is good and hot, rev your motor and see if the added coolant flow cools the system........it won't The only thing that will change the temperature is airflow over the radiator....not coolant passing through the inside. The slightest forward movement will bring the temps down almost 10°. If this were true, why do we have a water pump? Airflow through the radiator is very important. Airflow plus coolant flow equals good cooling. Our aurguement was just about coolant flow. We all know when things get hot the ECM turns on the fans and things cool down. Reving your engine only changes the flow unless you have an electric pump. On other older cars, reving the engine also increased the fan speed. You can turn the fans on by using the A/C or modify your fans so you can turn them on manually. I've been in stop and go traffic in 100 plus temps and with my fans on (manually) and my electric pump running, I've never gone over 210 degrees. I just have to remember to get out of the manual mode or I'll get a "Check engine soon" when I go over 35mph. I've been using distilled water and the green stuff since I installed the electric pump. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 22:00
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92 LT1, 6 speed, 3.54 rear, headers, B&B catback, Hurst shifter, polished ZR1 5 spoke wheels, Meziere electric water pump, other mods. |
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| jhammons01 | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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well, you have to have a water pump.
But then you continue with things that prove my point. Once a certain level of temp is reached, the only thing that cools the system down is airflow over the radiator. By increasing fan speed By fans turning on By increasing coolant flow the radiator is only going to remove "X" amount of energy with stagnant air. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 22:35
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| Strick | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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well, you have to have a water pump.  Do you agree that you need both? If not we have nothing to argue about. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 22:46
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92 LT1, 6 speed, 3.54 rear, headers, B&B catback, Hurst shifter, polished ZR1 5 spoke wheels, Meziere electric water pump, other mods. |
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| pianoguy | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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For future reference when there are differences of opinion
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 23:02
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Increasing flow helps, but you quickly hit the point of diminishing returns.
Cooling capacity of the radiator is determined by LMTD. Log mean temperature difference. Basically, the average temperature difference between the air and the coolant. Moving both through there infinitely fast means the coolant and air temps don't approach one another. Moving them at a snails pace allows them to equalize in temperature at the outlet. Heat transfer is maximized if the temperatures are kept as far apart as possible. Here's a generic "coil characterstic curve" from the HVAC industry. This is for a multipass tube/fin heat exchanger with constant airflow. The curve for our radiators will be even steeper. What it shows is that you've almost maximized your heat transfer with only 50% of the water flow. The engine block is also a heat exchanger, probably closer to this curve than the radiator.  |
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Posted on: 2008/1/11 23:03
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| jhammons01 | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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yes I agree you need both. But in thermal solutions as CC pointed out Temperature delta at the point of heat exchange is crucial. The Colder the radiator is to begin with will dictate how much cooling you get from running fluid through it. If the radiator has no air flow you can calculate how many Watts is it will transfer sitting in an ambient room. The wattage transfer will actually diminish by running more heated fluid though it without changing any other parameter. That calculation moves once air flow is passing across the fins. Here is the company I work for as an engineer. http://www.ferrotec.com/products/thermal/ |
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Posted on: 2008/1/12 4:42
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| Qack | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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The wattage transfer will actually diminish by running more heated fluid though it without changing any other parameter. Can you explain why that's true? |
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Posted on: 2008/1/12 15:16
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| jhammons01 | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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[quote="Qack"]Quote:
I see how I said it wrong, Let me try again, the Heat exchanger wattage transfer will not diminish..... because a larger amount of heated fluid is entering the heat exchanger. The heat exchanger can only transfer so many watts of energy while it is sitting in an ambient room with no air flow. More coolant equates to more heated or excited molecules entering the heat exchanger. The Heat exchanger is transferring the same amount of energy as it did before but the added energy from the added fluid raises the over all temps. We see a rise in over all temps. But saying the radiator is not cooling is wrong thinking....it is doing the same job it did before we raised the bar by increasing the amount of fluid. Again, we are dealing with Temperature "Delta's" or temperature "differences". We can change the Temperature delta by adding air flow over the fins, once we do this the heated fluid is exposed to cooler temps at the heat exchanger thereby removing more energy or watts from the coolant. Temperature delta is what it is all about. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/12 18:06
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| Qack | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Temperature delta is what it is all about. You're not considering that the coolant is cooing down as it transits through the radiator tubes and gives up its energy. For both high and low coolant flow, let's assume the inlet temperature is the same and the ambient temperature is the same. . As the coolant flows through the radiator, the coolant will lose temperature as it transits though the radiator giving up its thermal energy. For the case with higher coolant flow, each increment of the coolant will have less opportunity to give up its energy since it is in the radiator for a shorter period of time, so the exit temperature for that increment will be higher than for the case with low coolant flow. That is compensated for because more "increments" will pass through the radiator per unit time than for the low flow case. Since the average delta-t between the coolant and the ambient air is greater (for coolant Tavg = Tinlet - Toutlet), the case with high flow will have greater heat energy transfer per unit time. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/12 19:03
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| jhammons01 | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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^^I've been thinking on this for a day.
If the heat transfer rate maximum has already been reached, adding more heat, via added coolant flow, can in no way increase the watts transferred. The Temps in the Radiator outlet will only increase unless something else changes. The only way to increase the wattage transfer is to decrease the external temps that the Radiator is subject to. Either by dropping the room temperature or increasing air flow. I understand what you are saying, you are thinking that once the coolant travels through the fins.......it is going to cool down to the same temps due to the length of travel....But my point is this. As the coolant travels down the radiator passages the temps drop. IF YOU start flowing more coolant the temps at the lower area are going to increase with the taxation of added energy from the added coolant flow. The bottom of the radiator will begin to rise in temps. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/13 19:40
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| Qack | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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If the heat transfer rate maximum has already been reached ... Why would there be a maximum rate? I thought you said heat transfer was a function of delta-t. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/13 22:32
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| jhammons01 | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Correct. Delta T So if the temp....that is a good question why is that??
Let's see, if the function is Delta T and you have a maximum Temp Delta of say 70°C and the outside temp stays at 70° F Then if the Delta T makes the difference then why would added flow change what I said. The outside temps stayed at 70° so why wouldn't you still get 70°C delta-T? I'll have to pose the question to the guys, cause you bring up a good point. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/13 23:38
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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John, increasing flow will always increase heat transfer in the radiator! I don't see how there's a maximum transfer ability. I see how you do start approaching one as that characterstic curve levels out, but notice even at 100% flow the heat transfer is still increasing.
You also alluded to fluid energy = heat. I would agree that an overrunning waterpump will add some heat to the fluid, but it can't be much. How efficient is it? 85%? How much HP does it take to turn? The remaining HP is going to the belt, bearings or fluid temps. How does the water flowing through the radiator add any substantial heat? It can't lose kinetic energy, because it can't slow down in a virtually incompressible system. Does it lose pressure energy? Even if that added heat to the fluid, it would probably increase heat transfer. The hotter that coolant is, at every point in the radiator, means more heat transfer. I'm not sure where you're going with this. But I honestly didn't read all your posts either. |
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Posted on: 2008/1/14 2:45
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| jhammons01 | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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Horse power? I am not referring to any increase or decrease. We are just discussing thermal dynamics for the purpose of getting the truth out in the open about how a radiator cools. And understand, I am not a "know it all". I have to work this out just like the rest of us. With Qacks very well thought out questions and very inquisitive curiosity, I think we can all learn something here.
I was correct previously. Temperature Delta is where it is all at. Ok Heat dissipation through a given surface area can be calculated and a maximum number of watts transferred can be determined. Again, if you are at the maximum watt transference and you increase the flow of heated fluid into the inlet. Here is a good write up. You'll need to familiarize yourself with the nomenclature but in essence the Delta-T does not increase with added temps. The Delta-T remains a constant. http://www.energy-based.nrct.go.th/Ar ... utomobile%20radiators.pdf |
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Posted on: 2008/1/14 17:44
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Best way to flush coolant system? | ||
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I'm not sure how that article applies. Heat exchanger effectiveness and delta temperature are two independent variables (of 3 total) that can determine heat transfer. I think that paper is studying whether or not the are completely independent or not, and whether assuming effectiveness is constant can give them accurate results.
For example, I know the specific heat capacity of water is temperature dependent also. I think a perfectly effective heat exchanger means the flow is infinitely fast and therefore the delta T remains constant, at its maximum, as opposed to the LMTD curve it actually follows. So, probably, e = LMTD / (T1in-T2in) But regardless of any of my gibberish, increasing either effectiveness or delta T (or both) will increase your heat transfer. Poor lad just wanted to flush his coolant system. That'll teach him to ask questions!  |
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Posted on: 2008/1/14 22:48
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