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DaleD | Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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I've noticed I'm not the only C4 owner who can't make up his mind, so that's my disclaimer!
I saw a superram for sale over at another forum. The guy is close by me, said he had it on a 67 Chevelle. He wants $1k for it, comes with a base and rails. Couple of questions: Is that a good price? Should I even worry about a SR for my L98? |
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 18:31
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Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart, but I'm street smart", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I'm imaginary smart". |
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85L98-84L83 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Guru Newb
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I bought a superram for my 85 and it is still sitting on the self. My plan is to not install it untill I get some heads and a cam. Still waiting for the day I have some extra cash. I wouldn't know if it is worth it. But I here it is a good street system for the l98, they say its better on a 383 though.
Anybody have any performance numbers on just installing the superram on a stock l98? |
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 19:27
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85 vette - 3.54 gears,pulleys,160 stat,hypertech chip,K&N,no cat,B&B cat back,cut air lid,TB bypass,air pump elim pulley,air foil,Torque thrust II wheels,maaco paint job 84 vette - K&N,renegade,2 inch TB's,adustable fuel pressure to 15 psi,air pump e... |
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bogus | Re: Super ram? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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The SuperRam will do some things for you... it will maintain a lot of the torque that comes with the L98. But it will change the overall drive property of the engine. The torque goes up on the RPMs as does the horsepower.
The end result? Much like having a nice 4bbl carb, as far as RPM range and throttle response. It is also 50 state smog legal. You should get this setup, be sure it's complete (base, runners, plenium), I think it uses the OEM fuel rails. The price is very fair. The other upside, if it's been installed, the vacuum leaks have been resolved. I would consider the SuperRam, a nice set of heads, and a freer breathing exhaust. For about $4k, you have picked up 100hp, and have not harmed driveability. If anything, you have improved it. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 21:17
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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red_johnny | Re: Super ram? | ||
On Sabbatical
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Yeah thats a excellent price. When I sold mine 2 years ago I got 1200 for it and that was cutting the guy a deal!
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 21:19
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wesmigletz | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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While not exactly on par with the OP's question, the reason I'm hesitant to add FI to one of my cars is because by the time I'm done with the nickels and dime stuff, I could have purchased a used late model engine... I've kicked around the ideas of adding a miniram, First TPI, etc... I would think the OP could probably find a LS2 and swap it for not much more than the $4K quoted above. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 21:22
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bogus | Re: Super ram? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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You make an excellent point. The LSx will drop in and hook up to the 700R4 without any issues.
If he wants to go nuts, a 4L60E will be controlled by the same powertrain controller... |
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 21:31
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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BrianCunningham | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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If the emission police will allow it, your better of with a miniram. A lot easier to deal with. There's an EGR kit for it now, it's not certified though. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 22:03
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_________________
Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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88BlackZ51 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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I sold my SR several years ago for $1300, but it was ported and prob the nicest SR I have ever seen. I bought it from LD85's from the CF. I knew I wanted to build a stroker so it had to go.
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 22:25
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bogus | Re: Super ram? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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The SR is 50 state legal. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 22:28
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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BeachBum | Re: Super ram? | ||
Master Guru
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After running and racing most aftermarket intakes at one time or another, the Superram was my favorite.... and provided the best et's as well, or at least for the set-up I was running it did.
In my opinion, for a "true" street C4 350-383 TPI motor, there is no better intake..... my definition of a "true" street car is 2800 or less converter, mild cam capable of passing strict CA emissions and a highway friendly gear such as a 3.45 or less. A good example of a Superram application is forum member Ralph on the CF who put together a nothing special stock short block 350 with the well known LPE 219 cam, older AFR 190 heads out of the box and 1 5/8" headers with 2800 converter & 3.45 gears and ran a best of 11.62 @ 117 mph, and still ran high 11's in summer air. He had a friend with the exact same combo with 3.07 gears who ran identical times as his. These cars idled like stock and got great gas mileage..... but ran in the 11's. Pretty cool in my opinion.... and "anybody" can do the above or at least come close to his et's....just do the same using off the shelf parts. The Miniram and LT-1/LT-4 intakes are certainly capable of making more HP than the Superram, but unless you get aggressive with converter/gear combination, they will not necessarily out accelerate the Superram. On using a Superram with the stock motor..... I dunno, but doesn't make much sense to do, the stock cam was something like .400 lift and somewhere around 200 duration @ .050" or thereabouts anyway..... that cam was clearly designed to build low rpm torque to compliment the stock TPI.... the Superram is capable of giving you another 1000 rpm to work with, but the stock cam isn't. I'd wait to do it all together if I was you. One other note, I think the $ 1000 is a fair price, but perhaps not a great price either, on occasion I have seen them as low as $ 700.... but usually 800-1000 complete. (btw, your stock fuel rails work with the Superram, so you do not need theirs) good luck with whatever you decide ! |
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Posted on: 2009/1/4 23:00
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geogolf | Re: Super ram? | ||
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dale before you buy super ram look at the miniram or stealthram, imho both are just as good and will not be half as much trouble vac.leaks and sr go togeather like `ice cream/cake I had one and it was a pita got rid of it and did the lt1 intake swap
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 1:28
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DaleD | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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Thanks for the informative post. If I buy this SR, there's no doubt I'd just put it on the shelf and wait for a collection of parts to go in all at once. If someone handed me a stack of cash and told me to improve my 87, I'd want to do the intake, cam, headers for sure. I'm still uneducated on heads, and I know that's a freakin' hot button here, so I don't want to go there. I had a feeling $1k was a decent price, but not great. Geo makes an interesting point about leaks, that would concern me. My goal is to have a moderately fast street car that's reliable. I've heard, and firmly believe the saying: Fast, reliable, cheap - pick two. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 14:15
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Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart, but I'm street smart", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I'm imaginary smart". |
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bogus | Re: Super ram? | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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That's the charm of getting a used, run-in SR... the prior owner has already fixed the leaks in the lid.
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 15:59
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The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. - George Bernard Shaw Education is the best tool to overcome irrational fear. - me |
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BeachBum | Re: Super ram? | ||
Master Guru
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Yeah, no doubt about it, this hobby isn't cheap..... I don't even want to count what I've spent on my corvette over the years, I'm afraid it would scare me. On the Superram, of the 4 that I have owned, none have leaked, most that leak is due to improper installation. But, I have heard of the lid leaking on occasion if they do not have the Billet lid. But, even if its not a Billet lead, just use a double gasket on it. In my opinion, the Superram gets a bad rap due to a more difficult installation..... which it is when compared to the 1 piece MR, but its also not hard. Its just that there are more fasteners, thus takes a little extra time. I can personally have a Superram completely mounted in under an hour. The biggest difficulty people have is with the inner plenum belly bolts.... many will slot the fastener so they can cradle on the bottom and pull up through the top with a screwdriver..... which is easy to do. There are other methods you can do with the plenum belly as well, you can PM me if you want to know more about. As a note, on a A-B-A test I did about 4 or 5 years ago, I took of my Superram after running 11.47's back to back with it, put on the Miniram, tuned it up best I could.... ran 11.6x, put the Superram back on went back to the 11.4's...... this was with a 383, AFR, 219, 3k converter..... I'm not banging on the Miniram, I like it and own one, and it can run faster than the Superram, but it needs more converter to do it. Just food for thought.... |
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 17:01
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88BlackZ51 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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Beach, I wouldn't think that combo would of reved high enough to fully take advantage of the miniram. Actually 11.60 is good for that combo. What was the diff in 60/MPH?
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 18:01
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BeachBum | Re: Super ram? | ||
Master Guru
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More cam would have probably helped the Miniram, but it would have also helped the Superram. The real problem in comparing the two intakes with a hyd roller cam, is that you're limited by rpm and really no matter what you do, below 5500 rpm on a 350-383, the Superram makes considerably more torque, thus accelerates faster with street type converter/gearing packages. With a Solid Roller cam, the operating range maybe 5200-7200 rpm, it then becomes clear the Miniram is vastly superior. But, in my opinion, shifting at 6200 rpm, the Superram is a tough to beat intake if you're going to use a street friendly tight converter. In my test, the Superram's advantage was mostly in the 60 ft time..... although it did trap speed 1/2 mph higher as well. This is because in the operating range of 4200-6200 rpm, the Superram made more average HP than the Miniram in my application. On the 60's, the converter with the Superram flashed to somewhere around 3200 rpm, whereas the Miniram, the same converter flashed a couple hundred rpm lower, keeping in mind, the torque you have below the converter flash point does matter because it does effect the amplitude of the converter stall. On your 421 cubic inch application, the Miniram is the better choice in my opinion, simply because the Superram begins to inhibit the rpm capability with a big cube motor.... I've seen dyno's with similar set-ups to yours, but with a Superram, where the Motor made 520 HP @ 5200 rpm and 570 ftlbs @ 3800 rpm...... very stout, but the MR would be a bit more balanced and probably produce better et's.... albeit it would probably be closer than you think. With the same motor, a 560 HP @ 5800 rpm - 530 ftlbs @ 4500 rpm would be close to reality with the MR. In addition, your 421 cubic inches are providing the low to mid-range torque necessary to get your butt in motion that the smaller 350-383's just can't provide. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 18:48
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dan0617 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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Hey Beach, don't ever go to any other forums....we all need you here! Thanks for all that info, this thread has been very informative so far.
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 19:13
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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patgizz | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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Dale,
if you are interested at an up close uninstalled look at the superram before you commit to one i've got one on the shelf. 1k sounds fair, i've got about that much in mine after buying new gaskets. i go back and forth between sell the L98 and parts i've got for it and go LSx or keep it simple and mod what is there, it is a tough decision. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 21:38
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tpi421vett | Re: Super ram? | ||
Registered Vendor
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I agree with Beach. A super ram is a great manifold for a mild street engine,350-400 ci motor with a mild convertor, and doesn't need much cam. So gas mileage and throttle response will be excellant. It makes for a nice drive it anywhere street engine. I've done a few tried and proven 383 S.R. motors. 219 cam, 195 heads, and up here in our bad air (7000ft+ DA) they will still run 12's, and the last one I did was for a 87 Vette. The guy swears it gets 27mpg with the A4. However on larger engines (421+) I really think the miniram is the way to go. The super ram on big motors would really limit the rpm, as mentioned. But they really are apples and oranges. Both are trying to do different things. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 21:43
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AFR Dealer, can sell at prices too low to advertise. 801-953-6391 08 C6 LS3,3LT,Z51,A6,NPP 91 vette,450ci, AFR 220, miniram,FAST, Crane 252/260 solid roller, 200 shot nos, ZF6, 4 link, 9", DA corrected to 1300 ft 9.65@145.xx 450ci now with AFR 235... |
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BeachBum | Re: Super ram? | ||
Master Guru
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To add to what TPI421vette has said, I do think it bears mentioning, as others have said in this thread, you can't go wrong with either the MR or SR..... they're both good intakes and a country mile better than "any" long tube runner set-up.
Thus, if you chose an MR for your 350.... still no worries, you'll run great, and if you don't mind running a converter a little loose, everybit as good as the SR, if not better. Good luck with whatever you decide ! |
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Posted on: 2009/1/5 22:40
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tpi421vett | Re: Super ram? | ||
Registered Vendor
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You know Beach... it's hard to stay on topic with all these boobs flying around lately... LOL!!!
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Posted on: 2009/1/6 0:58
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tpi421vett | Re: Super ram? | ||
Registered Vendor
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Good point, you really can't go wrong with either manifold |
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Posted on: 2009/1/6 1:01
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dan0617 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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I was looking at going Superram but was afraid it wouldn't work well enough at 6200 rpms on a 383 with decent cam (although I was running a 350 at the time I had future 383 plans). Also got scared away by the removal/install time and headaches. I then was looking at going Miniram but was told that they have problems with some cylinders going lean on nitrous use (still have no idea if that is true or not) and was afraid that 6200 rpms wouldn't be enough to see the true benefit of the Miniram. I then decided to go between the 2 and get a Holley Stealth Ram. I love it. Great street torque, great at the track with the rpms and cubes that suit me. I hear that USM (or something like that) is making HSR intakes to fit under the 'vette hood now. I had to go with a custom plenum. The HSR might be worth you looking into, it is easy as pie to install and it works great. I also like that you can install the base, then shine a light down the runners and see how well it matches up to the heads. Then you can slide it back and forth just a hair before tightening or you can remove it and port match it. When all is good just 4 bolts puts the plenum on.
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Posted on: 2009/1/6 1:05
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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BeachBum | Re: Super ram? | ||
Master Guru
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LOL.... Jeffvette's & Brian's Avatars looked lonely, so I brought a little something too. :toothy3: |
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Posted on: 2009/1/6 4:41
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BeachBum | Re: Super ram? | ||
Master Guru
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I like the HSR, and I actually had one on top of my motor that had the converted sheet metal plenum to fit under the C4 hood. I was going to do an A-B-A test against the Superram with it..... but the HSR that was loaned to me for the test wouldn't seal no matter what I did.... within 10 minutes of driving, I'd be the proud owner of a crankcase sized vanilla milkshake. So, I took it off.... I didn't know at that time, but the first units done by Holley were for the 20 degree Holley cylinder head they made for a while....I'm thinking that was one of them, but not sure. But anyway, I did have a chance to drive it around the block a few times before I realized it wasn't sealing and I gotta say, the HSR really felt freakn great, my thinking at the time was that it was going to et well. But unfortunately, never found out. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/6 4:51
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tpi421vett | Re: Super ram? | ||
Registered Vendor
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I have probably run 100 bottles of nos thru my car with a miniram, and never hurt anything. That's spraying a 200 wet shot thru a plate. I wouldn't worry about it. Just check your A/F, and pull some timing depending on how much you spray, and you will be fine. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/6 19:49
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dan0617 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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Nice to know the miniram rumor is just another internet rumor. If and when I ever do a 434 I'll likely run a miniram.
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Posted on: 2009/1/8 13:17
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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CentralCoaster | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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I'd take the modified stealth ram in a heartbeat over the superram, assuming I wasn't in smog-nazi California where only the superram is legal.
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Posted on: 2009/1/9 3:23
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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CorvetteBob | Re: Super ram? | ||
Elite Guru
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If I wanna run a MR with my 4+3, can I expect decent results? (with appropriat parts combo, of course) |
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Posted on: 2009/1/10 22:37
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Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
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88BlackZ51 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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Miniram? Are you serious Bobby? |
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Posted on: 2009/1/11 1:58
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CorvetteBob | Re: Super ram? | ||
Elite Guru
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No firm decisions have been made yet. It's just an option I'm considering. The superram is all but legend now, and the stealth ram is almost as much as the MR by the time you get it to fit under the hood, so why not go with the MR and a milder setup? As I'm sure you've noticed by now, I don't hit the track too much, if ever, so why not go with the least amount of hassles to deal with? The stealth is a 2-pc, the MR is a 1-pc. Less hassle. The MR uses the big HEI, the stealth has some clearance issues with it. Less hassle. As a plus, the MR can now be fitted with an EGR. From what I've read on here and the other forum lately, the MR behaves alot like the LT1, so unless the Stealth can be shown to have more fun and driveability, I think the MR might be the direction to take. Yes, I know I'm NOT gonna have THE bad mutha on the street, but having a fun ride is more imporant. I'm gonna stay with the 350, but I think I can have a good running street ride with a MR, a Comp Cam somewhere in the ZZ4 to "hot cam" range, and some better heads. Headers are there already. For those who might read this and wonder why I'm not after the ultimate in speed/power, there is a reason. It's no longer a priority in my life to be KOTH. I'll try to use a proven setup and go with that. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/11 7:28
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Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
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BeachBum | Re: Super ram? | ||
Master Guru
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You'll run great whichever aftermarket intake you choose. I will say, as per your below post, I personally do not recommend you choose your intake on the basis of which is harder to put on..... the difference in difficulty between the easiest and most difficult is approxmiately 1 hour of time...... I do not recommend you sacrafice 40 ftlbs of torque below 5000 rpm for 364 days of the year because on the first day you wanted to save an hour..... doesn't make sense to do that. Good luck ! |
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Posted on: 2009/1/11 17:30
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dan0617 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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I would put a set of 113 heads on it, run a thin headgasket or shave the heads to get the static cr to about 10.5, do the hotcam, then it is your call on the intake.
The Stealth Ram would be better suited for your intended uses with this combo. It is 2 pc but it takes all of 5 minutes to set the plenum on and install the 4 bolts to make it the same as a 1 pc. You would need a small cap distributor and a remote mount coil. Most are ready for a new dist. and coil so it is no big deal. But it would be a hair simpler to stay with the HEI style. There are obviously many other little things to do for the swap, but I really think which ever of these intakes you choose you will be happy. I like your "proven combo" theory. Saves a lot of dough on experimentation. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/11 19:19
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´89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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Aardwolf | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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Bob why is the SR a legend? I just picked one up for cheap. Your saying they are rare? It's a great intake!
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Posted on: 2009/1/11 19:29
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CorvetteBob | Re: Super ram? | ||
Elite Guru
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If the stealth is that much better than the MR for lower and mid-range, then it might be VERY worthwhile to give it a better look. However, unlike alot of guys, I happen to want to keep the EGR and air pump. I'm certainly not about to buy all this stuff now as we're down to 28 hours a week at work and they're asking for more lay-off volunteers. But nothing can stop me from formulating a plan for the future.(heheheh) Aardwolf; The SR IS a great intake! I don't see many superrams coming up for sale anymore, and when I DO find them, I've been a day late or dollar short. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/11 20:08
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_________________
Beauty, it’s in the eye of the beer holder |
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BeachBum | Re: Super ram? | ||
Master Guru
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Quote:
I really think the new Holley Stealthram might be the best overall aftermarket intake if its officially available nowadays, but not sure. I know in the SuperRod test where they took a 383, trickflow cylinder heads and a comp cams hyd roller 236/242 cam, the HSR was the clear winner in my opinion. However, it is worth noting that they used the F-body version as supplied directly from Holley. I know the brand new version that will fit under the vette hood they have to modify the plenum..... assuming that modification doesn't hurt the intake potential, its reasonable to believe this intake might be the new in-thing. I'm anxious to see how it does on a big cube inch motor.... if I don't find any results from somebody else, I'll do my own MR vs HSR A-B-A test this summer. Does anybody know how much the new corvette friendly HSR cost ? btw, here is a summary of the SuperRod Test with these 4 aftermarket intakes: Superram: 480 HP @ 5600 rpm 506 ftlbs @ 4200 rpm 485 ftlbs @ 3500 rpm Holley EFI converted manifold: 493 HP @ 5900 rpm 480 ftlbs @ 4900 rpm 445 ftlbs @ 3500 rpm Holley StealthRam: 501 HP @ 6100 rpm 493 ftlbs @ 4600 rpm 460 ftlbs @ 3500 rpm TPIS Miniram: 505 HP @ 6100 rpm 470 ftlbs @ 5000 rpm 445 ftlsb @ 3500 rpm The MR nipped the HSR with 4 HP peak advantage, but gave way as much as 23 ftlbs of torque everywhere else to do it. The Superram was a torque monster as you might have predicted, but gave away power above 5500 rpm to the other intakes. I showed the torque @ 3500 rpm because its a really important rpm in my opinion. In my opinion, the Stealthram finished 1st in this test with the Superram in 2nd and the MR & Holley EFI tying for 3rd. But, the simulator backs that up as well if these motors are in an auto, 3k converter, 3.07 gears. But, its subjective. Just food for thought.... |
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Posted on: 2009/1/11 21:41
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88BlackZ51 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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The HSR certainly did appear as a clear winner with the 383, but I think when the cubes start heading North of 400, the MR will pull up it's socks. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/13 17:25
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88BlackZ51 | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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I believe you. I would rather give up 40 ft/lbs to gain 40chp anyday. I think I will have more then enough tq downlow with the MR on top. My car is light, and street driven hence why I wanted a really short runner, and something that will rev to 6k plus if needed. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/13 17:31
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CentralCoaster | Re: Super ram? | ||
Senior Guru
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I was gonna say the miniram only makes sense to me over the superram when you're doing some roadracing with it. For everything else, except maybe street racing on a freeway, the SR seems like a more useful choice. You can also justify a taller rear end with the superram, which should mean better fuel economy. |
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Posted on: 2009/1/13 20:22
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_________________
1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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