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| Oaklands | Hydrogen again | ||
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Senior Guru
 
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Here is a another hydrogen site with it put on a Mitsubishi and Corvette.
I think I would be a bit nervous with those tanks right behind me! http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/gallery.htm |
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Posted on: 2008/2/10 19:18
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| Ramrod | Re: Hydrogen again | ||
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Quote:
Here is a another hydrogen site with it put on a Mitsubishi and Corvette. Not to be a "Smart Ass" but anymore nervous than 20 gal. of gasoline? |
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Posted on: 2008/2/10 19:36
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| Oaklands | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Not after researching their site a bit more. Here is some literature from their site. BTW, that is a 1994 C4 they have the tanks in.
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm This link has a little more information. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/10 19:40
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| cmashark | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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i have been watching united nuclear for years. i hope they make this available soon and more companies start making their own version too.
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Posted on: 2008/2/10 19:42
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| Oaklands | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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It looks like the kits will be fairly expensive 7-10k, but over a long haul it would be well worth it. I would love to see our country rid ourselves of dependence on imported oil.
I've said it before. If you look at all the strides we have made in other fields over the last 100 years, the auto is far behind in finding alternative fuel sources. We have made great strides in perfecting the automobile as far as designs, safety, comfort, etc... Of course the oil companies and automakers have had a great deal to do with us not forging ahead. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/10 20:19
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| pianoguy | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Very cool (hell, I might even still be able to fit a golf bag in there - LOL)!
I recall that Honda had a similar unit (for purpose-built hydrogen cars) in limited testing a couple years back. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/10 20:35
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| bogus | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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BMW is working on an internal combustion engine that burns hydrogen.
The goal is to get hydrogen down to the equivilant to gas at $1.50 a gallon. Now, that ratio is based on using hydrogen in a fuel cell, not in an IC engine. There is a literally tons of untapped natural gas reserves to draw upon, and the use of hydrogen as the fuel source is more efficient than using the natural gas. However, there is a lot of energy consumed to break out the hydrogen... |
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Posted on: 2008/2/10 20:49
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| Notorious | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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GM has invested a ton of money into hydrogen research. While I don't have a current update, I know they are working on it full force. Of at least the domestic manufacturers, no one has even come close to their commitment to this. I do know that the last time I checked it out, they were making gains towards making this a practical and affordable alternative.
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Posted on: 2008/2/11 2:28
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| TommyT-Bone | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Chair-man of the bored
 
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On a serious note, I look forward to the day when an affordable alternative fuel source has been identified and I hope we have adequate resources available in this country to be self supporting. It would change the tide on our balance of trade and secure our future as a nation.
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Posted on: 2008/2/11 3:00
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| Oaklands | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Quote:
On a serious note, I look forward to the day when an affordable alternative fuel source has been identified and I hope we have adequate resources available in this country to be self supporting. It would change the tide on our balance of trade and secure our future as a nation. I couldn't agree with you more. Can you imagine the change this would make in our economy? |
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Posted on: 2008/2/11 3:47
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| runner140 | Re: Hydrogen again | ||
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Master Guru
 
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Quote: Guess thats why I carry TWO fire extinguishers. One on the harness bar and one on/under the front seat. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/11 20:27
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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I wouldn't take their word for it on safety. I was watching a program where they were swimming with great white sharks, and the "experts" were saying that was safe too.
Bogus, does that $1.50/gal based on life cycle costs? Problem with most of these alternative fuels is they just move all the pollution and expense over to the energy producers, instead of the users. It does improve production efficiency, but it requires adding new infrastructure. Electric car owners are so stupid when it comes to this. Anyone that calls them a "Zero Emissions Vehicle" is an idiot. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 1:48
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| kentucky_vetter | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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As long as the concentration stays in the 90% range it is safe. Would you believe that that stator in a power plants generator is hydrogen cooled . We have a 10k gallon tank on site just for that purpose.
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 1:53
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| jsup | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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The primary problem is that to refill the tanks takes forever. You can fill your gas tank in a matter of minutes, devices such as this, and electric cars, require HOURS to regenerate.
You'd need two sets of tanks, one charging and one in the car. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 2:05
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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That would require some type of standardized tank then that could be exchanged at the fill station, and filling up would be more like getting propane for your bbq.
And all the hydrogen would be trucked in to the stations with a stinky diesel big rig. :tongue: |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 3:00
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| cmashark | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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That would require some type of standardized tank then that could be exchanged at the fill station, and filling up would be more like getting propane for your bbq. maybe not, they could always have a local station that charges the bottles. it would just be a lot bigger than the one that United Nuclear has pictured on their site. they charge them, then swap them with you. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 3:33
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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My vote is that Hydrogen-powered vehicles will have a fundamental
characteristic that will present a sizable obstacle to their adoption for full-time use in most of Canada, a good portion of the US and a good portion of Europe. Care to guess? . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:41
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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There's Joy in Customer Service
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:44
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Senior Guru
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Sorry, but a 50 yr old woman wearing too much makeup isn't gonna swing my vote.
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:47
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Joy appears to be a trim, well rounded member of her generation.
. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 5:54
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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The primary problem is that to refill the tanks takes forever. You can fill This portends a return to full-service filling stations with 'pump jockeys' hired to facilitate tank switchovers. . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 6:00
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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My vote is that Hydrogen-powered vehicles will have a fundamental I think they should mount the tanks on the front of the vehicle. That way in every collision, at least 50% of the bad drivers involved will be terminated. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 6:06
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Actually, it is the water vapor by-product of combustion and fuel cell
operation that I had in mind. BMW's H-powered 7-Series deposits a noticable puddle at the rear while idling. I just picture such vehicles behaving like Zambonis during the winter months, paving the roads with fresh ice as each car passes by. Is there any solution to this besides containment - capturing the water and draining at intervals? . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 6:20
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| 94z07 | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Is there any solution to this besides containment - capturing the water Gasoline powered cars also produce water and in the right weather conditions it will stream out of the exhaust and puddle too. Has this been a problem for those in northern climes already? If not, I don't think it will be any new problem with hydrogen power. Anytime any organic compound is burned, CO2 and water will be byproducts. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 10:59
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Gasoline powered cars also produce water and in the right weather conditions I believe it is a matter of the proportion of water given off by the different processes. In a fuel cell, electricity is generated by passing hydrogen through the anodic side of a polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM). Oxygen is passed through the cathodic side. H ions are stripped off through an electrolyte between the anode/cathode. By-products of this chemical reaction are heat and water. How much water? "Combining a mole of hydrogen gas and a half-mole of oxygen gas from their normal diatomic forms produces a mole of water." From the above, it seems to me that a vehicle powered by a fuel cell will expel a quantity of water that is equal to the quantity of hydrogen consumed. At this time, I do not have a sense of the volume of water that would be produced to move a 2,400 lb fuel cell vehicle at 30 MPH. However, my vote is that it would be greater than the volume of water produced by a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine under the same conditions. FWIW. If I understand correctly, a stationary fuel cell manufactured by Toshiba for residential use expels 52.8 US gal (200 L) of water in the process of generating 700 W of electricity. . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 17:24
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| cmashark | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Joy appears to be a trim, well rounded member of her generation. i agree, for her age and no bra.....thats a nice rack |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 17:30
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| Skidmarks | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Actually, it is the water vapor by-product of combustion and fuel cell Think of it as a "free entertainment byproduct". |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 17:42
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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FWIW. If I understand correctly, a stationary fuel cell manufactured by Then you misunderstood. A watt is a rate of power generation. The water produced by 700 watts would have to be written in gallons per hour, gallons per day, or something along those lines. BTW 700W is about 1 hp. Not much at all! Now, for reference, I found this: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03494.htm Not sure if it's correct or not, but the math shows that burning 1 gallon of gasoline produces about 1 gallon of water. Before you call me stupid, read the link, and realize that the majority of that water actually comes from the oxygen feeding the engine, not the gas itself. (For each lb of fuel entering the engine, about 12 lbs of air enters also). |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 17:49
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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At this time, I do not have a sense of the volume of water that would be (Slalom4me produces a paper napkin) One thousand Watts (1 kW) is roughly equivalent to 1.34 horsepower. Arbitrarily suppose that a 2,400 lb vehicle requires 20 road horse power to travel at 30 MPH. Arbitrarily suppose 15% drivetrain losses, thus 20 RHP becomes 23.5 motor HP. 23.5 MHP / 1.34 HP per kW = 17.54 kW So, is 17.54 kW or 17,540 Watts at a 30 MPH cruise reasonable for a small efficient car? In the earlier post I wrote that it seems the Toshiba stationary FC expels 53 gal while producing 700 W. There has to be something wrong with the information or the reasoning. I can't imagine that an FC-equipped vehicle is going to be expelling 1,330 gals of water while producing 23.5 HP/hr. . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 18:19
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Reread first sentence of my post. The information you provided about the Toshiba is bad. Check your source. Also appears to be only about 30% efficient. Woopdiddydoo. Sounds like some other type of engine I know.
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 18:29
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Ok, - 700 Watts - per - 52.8 gal. - Or 75.43 gal H2O - per - kW. According to my dictionary, an SI Watt is a unit of electrical power, not a rate. Watts = Amps x Volts. The non-SI unit known as a Watt-hour is a unit of energy. A thousand Watt-hours (kW) is the amount of energy equivalent to a power of 1000 Watts running for 1 hour. Going back to the Toshiba Fuel Cell. It seems to be that the rate is 52.8 US gal (200 L) per 700 W. Regardless of whether 700 W is produced in a minute, an hour, a day or whatever - for 700 W, 52.8 gal is expelled by the process. Consider the chemical reaction (reverse electrolysis of water). In this reaction, H combines with O, releasing H ions, creating H2O and heat. I interpret from this that a given input of H results in a fixed output of H2O. The output of Watts is dependent on the efficiency of the reaction and efficiency determines the ratio of water per Watts produced but my vote is that time is not a factor in the relationship. Regarding efficiency of the Toshiba Fuel Cell. Your approximation of 30% is in the zone. The Toshiba FC is cited as having improved to 38% in 2004 from 28% in 2000. 38% is quite a distance from the optimum efficiency of 83% claimed for fuel cell technology in ideal conditions, but progress is being made. A claim is made that real fuel cells "are still much more efficient than any electric power plant that burns a fuel." The foundation for this is that unlike a heat engine, the FC is not constrained by the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Thanks for the link to the Q&A about water produced by burning gasoline. Darrin Wagner's response advises to consider the effect of incomplete combustion and the lessening of H2O as a result of the by-products, CO in particular. 94z07 - While the fuel cell's only by-products are water and heat, auto exhaust has the following in various ratios. From Wagner's comments, these all contribute to reducing the amount of water generated by an internal combustion engine. - Carbon monoxide CO - Nitrogen dioxide NO2 - Nitrogen monoxide NO - Sulfur dioxide SO2 - Suspended particles - Benzene C6H6 - Formaldehyde COH2 - Polycyclic hydrocarbons Thanks to everyone who is contributing toward helping me understand whether there really is any issue regarding substantially more water being output from a hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicle in winter driving conditions, compared to a conventional IC engine. . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/12 21:41
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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power IS A RATE of energy production or consumption.
just like speed is a rate of distance travelled, flow is a rate of volume moved, etc. Wh, or kWh on the other hand, like on your energy bill, is an amount of energy. You are billed for it. Just like gallons of water you use. The water company can't bill you for gallons per minute. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 0:25
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Thanks for the correction.
I do not know how to interpret the 700 W and 52.8 gal (200 L) outputs cited for the Toshiba fuel cell in a way that is meaningful in so far as determining how much water would be expelled from an FC-powered vehicle. . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 5:10
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| 94z07 | Double check my reasoning...easy math | ||
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Ok so let's try a few easy numbers to see if we have an issue or not.
Suppose we have a gasoline powered car that get 20 MPG. That's very realistic I think. It would produce a gallon of water for every 20 miles traveled. So if one were to scatter the ice crystals from one gallon of gas over a 20 mile track could that cause any safety problems? I don't think so. I understand that to produce the same power one needs to consume about four times as much hydrogen gas as gasoline liquid by volume. Let's not use the 4:1 ratio. Let's go to the extreme. Suppose we have a hydrogen powered car that gets only 1/20th the MPG of the gas car. That would mean putting out a gallon of water every mile. So would it be a hazard if the ice crystals from a gallon of water were uniformly distributed over a 1 mile strip? Again, I don't think so. This is totally off the cuff so please poke holes in my reasoning.  |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 12:21
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Slalom, can you post a source for the info that I can try and interpret? I couldn't find any specs on the Toshiba online.
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 17:53
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| CSS996 | Re: Double check my reasoning...easy math | ||
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Ok so let's try a few easy numbers to see if we have an issue or not. I'm late to this party, but very interested. As far as your stated theory above, it sounds fine for one car, but if you put thousands of cars on that track, things could get interesting. OK, so what if every car on the planet emitted only water vapor as a byproduct? Would we then see a change in the climate of the world? Like lots more rain? Less sunlight? Growth of polar ice caps? Reverse global warming? Damn, I hate humidity! |
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Posted on: 2008/2/13 18:29
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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Slalom, can you post a source for the info that I can try and interpret? This is the best I can find now "The 200 liters of hot water and 700W power output are ideal for a family of four. We have noticed the cost savings in the eight months since installation. We look forward to having a low-cost, reliable fuel cell." From "Fuel Cells: Compact Home Power Plant" FWIW, here is some data about the Honda FCX Clairity, a fuel cell powered sedan discussed in the Mar, '08 issue of C&D. FC output: 100 kW e-Motor: 134 hp 189 lb/ft Curb wgt: 3,600 lbs Fuel cap: 5.3 kg (in 45 gal tank) Range: 270 mi EPA City/Hghwy: 49/46 m/kg . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/15 6:38
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| CentralCoaster | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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That's probably 200 liters per day, which is probably not enough for a family of four, but its in the ballpark.
I can't believe they're drinking the water coming out of there, won't it have impurities in it or organic growth? Or is it as good as distillation? Your air conditioner makes water too, but you definitely don't want to drink it. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/16 1:58
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| Slalom4me | RE:Hydrogen again | ||
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That's probably 200 liters per day, which is probably not enough for a family of four, for folks in many other regions. Quote: I can't believe they're drinking the water coming out of there, won't it have In theory, there aren't impurities because only H and O join together. As long as long as the chamber and outflow plumbing is sterile, H2O alone is what results from the Fuel Cell process. . |
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Posted on: 2008/2/20 19:07
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| Ramrod | Re: Hydrogen again | ||
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Gentlemen, thanks for the quick education, very interesting. Every new product or process always starts out crawling before it can walk. I say give it time and make the cost reasonable. Space travel started out with exploding rockets and as one poster said evolve or perish.
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Posted on: 2008/3/6 4:19
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