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Regular Production Order. These are the codes that GM uses to identify options.

For example, LT1 is the RPO for the engine used from 1992-1996.
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biggrizzly Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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... or maybe it should be Sweet then Bitter!

Well after all the coaching and too much thinking, I got up there today and it all came rushing back and it was a hoot. I was very happy with my first run time of 13.227 at 106mph

Track temp was over 100 degrees. My coolant temps were 180
Rear Tires at 26PSI (should have went lower like Pete recommended I think). I decided to run it on the street tires for the initial runs just to see how it handled. I did a short powerbrake burnout after driving around the water. My reaction time sucked at .648 and I spun pretty good till it hooked and went. I know that this car "HAD" high 12 seconds in its future but not sure now, because........


OK -- second run... similar conditions - coolant temps were a smidge higher at 185. I had a better launch and it seemed to be hauling ass initially, but somewhere about two thirds down the track the trans would not shift out of second and before it registered I was hitting 6500 RPM and no shift was occurring. I lifted the gas pedal and the engine just shut down. No bang, No boom, no smoke, no oil. I just had enough momentum to get to the turn off and wait for the tow back to the pits.

I had several "helpers" try to diagnose the problem but I really don't know what happened at this point in time. I let it cool and tried to start it. It turned over many times with no start and then fired up like it was running on a couple cylinders. It could not run on it's own without a little gas from the pedal. Also someone thought they heard a clank under the left valve cover but that might have been something else. Also there was some kind of squealing sound from the front of the motor somewhere perhaps in the area of the opti or accessories.

I'm not totally bummed because the first run felt so strong and good. I loved it and know that it definitely had more in it. But just not today.

Our Club Sponsor, Sport Chevrolet from Silver Spring, MD had brought out a new Camaro to display, so when the flatbed came to get it, they took my car too. I caught a ride home with a friend and we went out and had a couple beers and some great food!! What a day!

I'll sort all of this out this week. Seems like never a dull moment and I'm not mean to drive this car very much these days!!! LOL

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jpg  TimeSlips.jpg (46.71 KB)
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Posted on: 2010/5/3 1:30
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pianoguy Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Congrats on your first run, and mojo for an inexpensive repair.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 1:47
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1Fast04Vert Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Glad you aren't bummed out and had a real nice first run.
Hope the problem turns out to be minor.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 1:51
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PeteK Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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That converter has the potential (in my opinion) for a 1.700 60 foot time with your combo. 2 tenths on the 60' often equate to 4-5 tenths at the finish line. Definately should run 12's once you straighten it out.
Good luck.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 2:02
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TommyT-Bone Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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The adrenalin rush is killer; Aint it? Sorry about your misfortune. Hope you get it all squared away soon.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 2:28
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Matatk Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Sorry to hear about your misfortune, Don. Hopefully it can be resolved easily.

Matthew
Posted on: 2010/5/3 2:32
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Thanks guys. I called my guys down at the shop and told them my story. Frank is thier Corvette Mechanic and has raced Corvettes and worked on them for over 30 years. I have a pretty good rapport with him, the shop Manager and service writers. He said he would check it out later today and try to determine the problem or problems.

Oh, additionally, I don't really see it as misfortune, but just working out the weak links!
Posted on: 2010/5/3 12:35
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flyboy Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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I like your attitude!
I hope it's an inexpensive "link".
Posted on: 2010/5/3 12:44
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BrianCunningham Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Congrats on the run

Best of luck on the repair
Posted on: 2010/5/3 14:24
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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I got some news... not so good, but if there is a silver lining in every cloud I now have an opportunity to build a 383 stroker.

Frank says without tearing it down, but listening closely he feels its a spun rod bearing. Nothing is locked up at this point. He has no clue about the transmission as he put it in gear and drove the car about 10ft to move it.

I'll probably have it towed back home and plan on pulling the motor. Looks like no summer driving fun for now.

Cheers
Posted on: 2010/5/3 17:05
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Don Haller
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bogus Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Well... yea, time for that 383!

I was actually going to guess a blown rotor on the opti... sorta sounded that way when it wouldn't restart.

Keep us posted as things move forward!
Posted on: 2010/5/3 17:43
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1Fast04Vert Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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I was thinking a broken crank, but didn't want to say it.

Instead of a 383 I would look for an LT4 with a hotcam kit.
Wonder how busy Pete K is these days?
Posted on: 2010/5/3 18:07
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

95vette wrote:
I was thinking a broken crank, but didn't want to say it.

Instead of a 383 I would look for an LT4 with a hotcam kit.
Wonder how busy Pete K is these days?


I'm looking for a bit more than that will give up. My current setup would do better but needs a stronger bottom end.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 18:28
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pianoguy Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Ouch!
Posted on: 2010/5/3 18:57
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PeteK Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Don,
If you need any advice, or recommendations, let me know. Help is always free with no strings attached.
I might be able to recommend specific parts that could be helpful, once you have determined what broke, and where you want to go from here.
PK
Posted on: 2010/5/3 19:16
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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[quote]
PeteK wrote:
Don,
If you need any advice, or recommendations, let me know. Help is always free with no strings attached.
I might be able to recommend specific parts that could be helpful, once you have determined what broke, and where you want to go from here.
PK[/quote

Thanks so much Pete. I'll be sure to give you a call if I need some advice. That's probably a given. I have considered a short block solution but not sure if that is as cost effective as sending my block out like Matt is doing.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 19:20
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Don Haller
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PeteK Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quality for quality, the costs seem to be the same, in my opinion. If you have a builder you trust, be sure to use him rather than take a chance on an unknown.
Alot of the guys that advertise on the internet have already burned through their local people, and try to escape their bad reputation by reaching outward across the states.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 19:27
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

PeteK wrote:
Quality for quality, the costs seem to be the same, in my opinion. If you have a builder you trust, be sure to use him rather than take a chance on an unknown.
Alot of the guys that advertise on the internet have already burned through their local people, and try to escape their bad reputation by reaching outward across the states.


Funny you say that. I just talked to an eBay seller that advertised engines and he happened to be within 20 miles of home. So I asked if he did any individual custom work for a specific engine build I had in mind. As soon as he identified me as half knowledgeable and that I wanted it for a performance application he shut down and said he would not sell me one of his engines. He said that he would rather not make me "not happy" and him "not happy"
So, I asked if his engines could not handle 5500 RPM and he just said that his engine was not designed for performance applications. End of Story. He told me to go to Golan.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 19:47
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PeteK Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Do your due dilligence to research Golen.
Jus sayin.....
Posted on: 2010/5/3 19:49
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

PeteK wrote:
Do your due dilligence to research Golen.
Jus sayin.....


I have and I doubt seriously if I would go to Golen. They are a bit pricey by me and I wondered why they dropped Lloyd Elliot. He was doing thier heads and then all of a sudden he was not.

Anyhow, I have a lot to think about, and I'm not going to jump the gun.

I did just read that you finished an engine just this weekend. Perhaps you are longing to work another block. Jus sayin....
Posted on: 2010/5/3 19:58
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BeachBum Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Congrats on the fun at the strip ! It can be addictive.

On the transmission not shifting out of 2nd gear at wot.... fairly common and usually associated with the 3-4 clutch pack. A rebuild was my solution for the exact same problem. Hope yours is something different.....and thus cheaper !

Good luck on your choice for a short block builder.... and as already mentioned, do your homework.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 20:01
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PeteK Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

biggrizzly wrote:
Quote:

PeteK wrote:
Do your due dilligence to research Golen.
Jus sayin.....


I have and I doubt seriously if I would go to Golen. They are a bit pricey by me and I wondered why they dropped Lloyd Elliot. He was doing thier heads and then all of a sudden he was not.

Anyhow, I have a lot to think about, and I'm not going to jump the gun.

I did just read that you finished an engine just this weekend. Perhaps you are longing to work another block. Jus sayin....


The economy has hit this area hard, and my machinist as well. If you were willing to consider the travel, I could certainly do something on this end. Unfortunately, no LT1 blocks to be had locally. Lets hope yours is salvagable.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 20:05
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Weavsvet Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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That's a very good first run Brizz! Sorry about your engine though. At least it's out in the open now and you can move on with your plans for something better. Best of luck to you in your choices of which way to go now! You'll be back at the track and even better next time.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 20:21
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rklessdriver Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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I am really sorry to hear about your engine.

LTX's are well known to spin rod brgs when over revved. You need to find out what caused the trans to hang up in 2nd gear.

I'm fairly close to you. I know others have already offered but if you need any additional help fixing the motor, let me know.
Will
Posted on: 2010/5/3 21:55
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Woodstock Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Next time ask your tuner to program the rev limiter at 6K rpm. I did it for a friends 383 stroker and he loves it. From time to time he drives first or second gear straight into the limiter and does his shifting right thereafter. Cheap insurance and just a couple of clicks away.
Posted on: 2010/5/3 22:40
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pr0zac Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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if need be i have an extra lt1 block.. i know it needs to be bored out. i drive from south carolina to new york alot soo throwing it in the car on one of my trips isn't a big deal.
Posted on: 2010/5/4 1:04
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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You guys are too helpful! After I get the motor out and sort things out, I'll try to figure out what my options are and how I can leverage your generosities.

Thanks
Don
Posted on: 2010/5/4 1:10
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Don Haller
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bogus Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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So... how strong is strong enough?

How tight are you gonna wind this new unbuilt motor up?

I would go with all forged bottom end... and look for an F- or B-Body LT1 block and bore, stroke, relieve and then splay.
Posted on: 2010/5/4 4:23
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

bogus wrote:
So... how strong is strong enough?

How tight are you gonna wind this new unbuilt motor up?

I would go with all forged bottom end... and look for an F- or B-Body LT1 block and bore, stroke, relieve and then splay.


Good questions Andy... Its obvious we need at least 6500 or 7000 RPM.

I don't know if you remember back when I was making choices to rebuild the motor in the first place, but I was in a small single car garage with no access to remove the whole motor nor the funds at that time to do the bottom end. After discussing with lots of people I had about a 50/50 chance of the bottom end holding up to the new top-end. I decided then to just do the top end. It held together for the past year and half as a cruiser and spirited driver, but when put to the real task at the drag strip could not cut the mustard.

So, Lesson Learned: If deciding on a top end rebuild or whole engine rebuild on a !00+ mile car, do the whole thing. I don't regret my decision at the time as there was no way I could have done it any other way. I wish I could have done it right and gone the distance as in the long run I probably spent almost as much anyhow.

Also - why not use my block if it is ok?
Posted on: 2010/5/4 10:40
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PeteK Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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No reason not to use your block, if it is ok. There is 1 advantage to starting with a 2 bolt main LT1 block though.
It can have splayed 4 bolt main caps installed for more strength in the lower end.
Posted on: 2010/5/4 11:12
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bogus Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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From my observations, doing a head job on a high mileage stock bottom end usually results in catastrophic failure.

Mr Mojo did this to his 93 and it left a trail of crap along the Washington Beltway... or something like that.

In short, the stock bottom end isn't designed to spin past about 6000 RPM.

I referenced the splayed caps... just a suggestion for ulitmate strength. 4 bolts is pretty stout to begin with, really.
Posted on: 2010/5/4 14:26
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PeteK Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

bogus wrote:


I referenced the splayed caps... just a suggestion for ulitmate strength. 4 bolts is pretty stout to begin with, really.


I agree. It has always been my mindset that if you "need" spayed 4 bolt main caps, you really need a better, aftermarket block. Unfortunately, there is nothing out there for a gen 2 sbc.

Target 6500 as a max RPM. Any higher, and you really should go solid roller. Just my 2 cents.
Posted on: 2010/5/4 14:33
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SpectatorRacing Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Hmmm...I know you're getting yourself excited about the 383, but I'm doubting that your issue is that catastrophic. First of all, a spun rod bearing woudn't cause the car to just quit. That sounds electrical to me...a coil, opti, ICM. The fact that it runs but runs poorly again sounds like an opti issue.

A spun rod bearing is easy to diagnose. Rev the motor and lift your foot off. If it clatters on decel it's a rod bearing. If not, it's probably not.

If it is dead, I have a two bolt LT1 block or a custom built kick-arse 383 I can sell ya cheap

How's 410 / 396 RW sound with a robust stock compression ratio, a 7200 RPM redline, lightweight crank, Delteq, etc?

Of course there's a car wrapped around it, but it's fully caged and ready to go to the drags!!!
Posted on: 2010/5/4 15:24
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pr0zac Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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i was not saying you definitely needed another block.. i just have a spare if needed.. and its a 2 bolt btw.
Posted on: 2010/5/4 20:36
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BrianCunningham Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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He's right a spun rod bearing shouldn't keep it from turning

See if you can get it started

They're right about Golen

They're local, I know someone up @ NED that found parts installed backwards, clearanced rods, when he dropped the pan
Posted on: 2010/5/4 20:37
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1Fast04Vert Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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What would explain the squealing sound from the front of the engine? Can an opti have internal damage and still let it start and run like crap?
Posted on: 2010/5/4 22:42
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

BrianCunningham wrote:
He's right a spun rod bearing shouldn't keep it from turning

See if you can get it started

They're right about Golen

They're local, I know someone up @ NED that found parts installed backwards, clearanced rods, when he dropped the pan


Brian - it will start and run, but not very well.

I won't really know what is up until I get it back home and start taking things off. Opti will be one of the first things I check. The transmission is coming out and going for a rebuild or replacement. I really feel it was the catalyst for the whole episode. But I'm also miffed about why I had no rev limiter. I thought I had specifically asked Brian to set it at stock setting.
Posted on: 2010/5/4 22:55
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rklessdriver Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

95vette wrote:
What would explain the squealing sound from the front of the engine? Can an opti have internal damage and still let it start and run like crap?


The rotor's in the Optisparks have been known to come apart at high RPM.

Sometimes there is still enought of the rotor left on the stub shaft that the engine will still run. Then the parts of the rotor that came apart can get hung up in there. Those parts of the rotor could be making the noise.

Of course rod brgs squeal before they start knocking as well.

Without actually hearing it, we are all just speculating at this point.
Will
Posted on: 2010/5/4 23:36
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1Fast04Vert Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

rklessdriver wrote:
Quote:

95vette wrote:
What would explain the squealing sound from the front of the engine? Can an opti have internal damage and still let it start and run like crap?


The rotor's in the Optisparks have been known to come apart at high RPM.

Sometimes there is still enought of the rotor left on the stub shaft that the engine will still run. Then the parts of the rotor that came apart can get hung up in there. Those parts of the rotor could be making the noise.

Of course rod brgs squeal before they start knocking as well.

Without actually hearing it, we are all just speculating at this point.
Will


Based on this I am going to place my money (.02) on the opti failing. A rod bearing that is not knocking should not keep it from running normally. Right?
Posted on: 2010/5/4 23:48
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BrianCunningham Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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They run, they shake like crazy, you'll hear it too

Drop the pan if you really think that's
Chech each rod for play

A rod bearing will mess up the rod & the crank

Unless the rod let loose the block should be ok
Posted on: 2010/5/5 0:02
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rklessdriver Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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95vette wrote:

Based on this I am going to place my money (.02) on the opti failing. A rod bearing that is not knocking should not keep it from running normally. Right?


When a rod brg first spins, it trys to weld itself to the crank pin while still being held by the big end of the rod.

Eventually it wears the brg or the big end of the rod to the point that it has enough clearance that it has the audiable knocking we all know about.

Before if finally gives loose of the rod or wears enough to make noise - the engine is VERY tight. Depending on how tight, it could hinder the engine cranking over and at idle.

Cutting apart and inspecting the pleats of the oil filter will tell the tale.
Will
Posted on: 2010/5/5 1:28
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pr0zac Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Well I don't have much insight about my vettes stock engine throwing a rod cause I was topping out 4th gear shifted into 5th and I just heard things hitting the floor. But my trans ams stock engine lost a rod driving up my driveway and it sounded like an intermittent belt squeal and it blew a hole in the side of the block ruining it.
Posted on: 2010/5/5 2:07
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dan0617 Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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biggrizzly wrote:
But I'm also miffed about why I had no rev limiter. I thought I had specifically asked Brian to set it at stock setting.


Not sure about your year of car or the LT1, but the stock rev limiter in my '89 L98 car is set at like 10,000 rpms. Basically so high that it isn't a limiter at all. Can be lowered, but if someone was doing my tuning for me and I told them to set the limiter at stock, that wouldn't be good.

Also, if any of you are running nitrous or boost (I know you are not but others reading this might be), DO NOT use the rev limiter in the tune. It is a fuel cut rev limiter, not a spark cut. You will go BOOM if you hit it with a power adder.

I turn my 383 (4 bolt block, all forged, 6" rods, hydraulic flat tappet cam) to 6500 rpms on every shift, and have the limiter on the Crane hi-6 set to 7000. My short block builder says the bottom end is good to 8000. I can't imagine turning a stroker to 8,000 but I guess it is possible.?.?
Posted on: 2010/5/14 14:53
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On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft.
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bogus Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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The LT1 actually has a rev limiter; it's set at about 5700 RPM... the L98 has TPI.
Posted on: 2010/5/14 19:47
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Aboatguy Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Yep...stock lt1 limiter is set pretty low....
However, unlike the internet rumors ...the stock PCM can handle engine above 6500 rpm.....My limiter is set a little over 7K and works fine.

Did the OP ever get a diagnosis
Posted on: 2010/5/23 21:46
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pr0zac Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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its not that it can't be reved that high.. its that it can't be tuned higher then 7k and follows whatever the last cell was.. at least thats how i have heard.
Posted on: 2010/5/24 1:24
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Aboatguy Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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pr0zac wrote:
its not that it can't be reved that high.. its that it can't be tuned higher then 7k and follows whatever the last cell was.. at least thats how i have heard.


I'd bet the 7K limit is internet fact...here's another screen shot from my daily driven LT1 factory OPTI and PCM with an Ed Wright Tune...

Remember this sucker has survived years of daily boatguy driving

[IMG]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a342/aboatguy/Car/Harbor%20Freight/7158.jpg[/IMG]
Posted on: 2010/6/5 18:22
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1Fast04Vert Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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I suppose by now Don has dropped the pan (or pulled the opti apart) and checked it out. Wonder what he found???
Posted on: 2010/6/5 19:10
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biggrizzly Re: Bitter Sweet Day at the Drags
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Quote:

95vette wrote:
I suppose by now Don has dropped the pan (or pulled the opti apart) and checked it out. Wonder what he found???


I was looking at this old thread from last summer. I thought I'd put some more information down here to answer some questions if someone comes reading it again in the future.

It is the first week in January and the block is on the milling machine getting worked on. I didn't take pictures yet but almost every bearing surface on the crank was trashed beyond repair. My builder even called me on the phone to ask if the engine had oil in it when this happened. (it had a full pan of new Mobile1)

The MSD Opti was fine with no damage. It looks like new still.

I have decided to go with a mild 383 build. I'm having the heads port matched as they came from Lloyd they were not completely matched and my builder feels that the runners are a little too smooth for his liking as they show signs of fuel puddling in some areas. Also, we found one valve with a hairline crack. Some of the valve seals were showing signs of wear with less than 5,000 miles on them. The heads are getting a new valve job again and new seals. Changing to Manley valves and getting rid of the Ferrea valves. So the heads will also be completely redone by Jackson Racing Engines here where I live. Since my builder knows I want to autocross the car and perhaps do some Friday at the Track events he recomende a better than stock oil pan and better pump. So I ordered a Champ road racing pan.

PeteK is doing his magic to the transmission and Mick Stevens will be doing the tuning for me.
Posted on: 2011/1/10 1:10
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