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| grind4it | C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Okay I am working on a LS1 swap into my 1985 C5 Corvette and have come to the conclusion that I should upgrade the brakes while have everything torn apart.
I have seen a lot of C4 to C5 upgrade kits, along with the J55 upgrade kit and I am wondering which is better, or is there something better than both of these options? Ideally I would like to keep my budget under $1,000 for the brakes. I do understand that I will have to purchase 17 wheel. What are the pros and cons of the J55 and the C5 upgrade? Has anyone preformed these upgrades? If so, what is your experience? How difficult is it to upgrade? Also, where should I buy my parts? I have seen them offered by Speed Hound http://www.speedhound.com/brakes.html . Another question: I have also decided to replace the bushings, tie rods, and shocks on my car. Can anyone recommend manufactures and suppliers of poly bushings and the other parts? Thanks, Mark |
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 17:08
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| CSS996 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Just a preliminary answer, as I know very little....
I believe I've read that the rear C5 brakes are too much of a hassle to bother with. But maybe fronts are all you need. Can somebody tell me (us) the difference between J55 and Grand Sport brake kits? Is there a reason to do one over the other? Or is it the same components? |
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 19:11
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| Aardwolf | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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From what I remember the GS caliper is very slightly better but is painted black. So some use it as an apperance upgrade. IIRC they are expensive!
I have the C5 fronts for track use and like them. Pads/rotors cost less and there are more options. I paid around $300 getting calipers from FLY LOW on CF and Jeffvette adapters. The stock C5 pad was poor IMO, the ZO6 pad had good bite though! You don't really need different calipers, just use a high quality pad. Superior Chevy page on calipers: http://www.superchevyperformance.com/v/misc/c4calipers.html |
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 19:33
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| BrianCunningham | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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are you going to track the car at all?
The reason I ask is that the C5 brakes are still slide calipers, and they have trouble with pad wear at the track. Check out Central's opposed piston Wilwood setup. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 21:22
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| Aardwolf | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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You can swap the pad around though so there have been no wear issues with mine. I'd prefer a BBK kit like that but they are pretty expensive.
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 21:27
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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The problem with upgrading the to the J55 system is it will cost you just as much as the C5 system. The C5 components are cheaper to replace as well as far as rotors and pads.
The benefit of the C5 caliper over a J55 or even GS caliper is the caliper design. The C5 caliper has a stronger casting and at least a small vent hole at the top of the caliper to help with heat release from the rotor. The C4/GS is just a solid design and contains the heat. The best option though, is to use all the C5 components, except for the caliper itself. The C6 base caliper swaps in directly, and is a stronger caliper over the C5, and a better design, and also has a larger Corvette script on the caliper. I currently have plenty of 85-87 brackets ready to go. I can also do a full kit. Shot of my 85-87 bracket being installed.  |
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 22:04
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| Aardwolf | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Doesn't the C6 caliper use a pad just like the C5 pad and rotor as well? So that would be a better caliper with the benefits of a wide range in pads/rotors.
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 22:26
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Same pad, and same rotor.
C5 Z06 caliper   C6 base/Z51 caliper   |
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 22:59
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| Danspeed1 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Jeff's kit is amazing, and his work is "THE BEST" I have ever seen! I couldn't believe my eyes when I got the calipers. They looked badass on my 89 Vette, and stopped about 10X faster, no joke! Jeff is also a really nice guy to deal with.
Dan Before [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/corvette089.jpg[/IMG] After [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/89%20Corvette%20For%20Sale/CorvetteForSalePhotos021.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/89%20Corvette%20For%20Sale/MelinaBrake.jpg[/IMG] |
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 23:41
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1971 Chevelle SS (The Original) 1972 Chevelle SS 454 1995 Corvette Convertible 1996 Ford Explorer 2009 Cadillac CTS-v |
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| Danspeed1 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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[IMG]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r97/BG528/89%20Corvette%20For%20Sale/MelinaBrake.jpg[/IMG]
DG |
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 23:51
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1971 Chevelle SS (The Original) 1972 Chevelle SS 454 1995 Corvette Convertible 1996 Ford Explorer 2009 Cadillac CTS-v |
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| BrianCunningham | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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I took this pic when a friend upgrade his 12in brake to 13in J55's
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Posted on: 2008/12/15 23:58
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Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ 383 LT1/Vortech Supercharger/AFR heads/Rod end suspension/Penske-Hardbar dual rate coilovers/Wilwood 6pot brakes NCCC Governor: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com |
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| Matatk | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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I'm very happy with the C5 upgrade on mine. I can post some pics later if interested, but pretty much looks like all the others.
Matthew |
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Posted on: 2008/12/16 0:01
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| sidney004 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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For a $1000 budget, you could probably get a 4 piston Wilwood BBK. Those prices seem very high for a J55 or C5 upgrade. I am in the process of upgrading to C5's from J55's on my raced 94 using used parts(dirt cheap nowadays), the two primary reasons are (1) cheaper and more available racing pads and (2) greater thermal capacity because the C5 rotor is 1.25" thk v. 1.1" on the J55. Braking performance is more a function of the pads than the calipers and rotors so spend your money on a good set of Hawk HPS or HP+'s. As for used prices, I paid $60 for a set of C5 calipers, $60 for the abutement brackets, $100 for the C4/C5 adapter bracktet, $30 for rotors and I got EBC racing pads as a promo for free. You routinely see complete used J55 conversions for $250. Also, as others have said, leave the rears as they are.
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Posted on: 2008/12/16 7:27
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| grind4it | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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That is an interesting statement You don't really need different calipers, just use a high quality pad. I have this post on other forums and this keeps coming up. Does anyone else agree?
What pads would you recommend? Quote:
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Posted on: 2008/12/16 23:35
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| grind4it | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Messgae sent
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Posted on: 2008/12/16 23:36
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| CentralCoaster | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Well, that's true to an extent.
The factory pad is the weakest link, it fades at high temperatures. So your first step is to just put on a pad that withstand those temperatures. You can run a better and better pad until you start compromising other things, like cold weather driving, noise and dust, wear, boiling fluid... If you go beyond that, you need to look at ways of reducing the temperature... larger rotors, brake cooling ducts... A better caliper can help reduce pad fade too by applying even pressure across the pad. Jeff, are the C6 base brackets and rotors any different than the C5? |
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Posted on: 2008/12/17 1:49
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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No, same size. 13" rotor, and the caliper uses the same pad. You can upgrade to the C6 Z51 if you have the wheel space which gives you a 13.4" rotor. You just need to supplement the Z51 abutment bracket. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/17 2:26
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Problem is, you start using an aggressive pad, then you start chewing rotors up. Plus you will start to heat the hell out of a rotor as well. Pad selection is totally dependent upon your needs. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/17 2:27
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| astock165 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Quote:
I would agree with that statement. A few years ago I upgraded to the J55s and saw an improvement over the stock 12" JL9s. Then I went to a Wilwood E compound pad which was better than a street pad. Recently I went to the track and got to try a set of PFC pads in the same J55 calipers and WOW! I was impressed and the car handled very well. CC is dead on in his statement about heat management though and it won't take long to get there. My recommendation: if you have JL9s on the car now and are serious about upgrading, take that $1000 and look into a PFC or Wilwood caliper set. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/17 3:21
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| astock165 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Quote:
Another question: Forgive me for the admittedly shameless self promotion: if you're going to have all that power in your C4 you need more than poly bushing and stock links. Check out my website and this thread for special Holiday deals. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/17 3:25
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Banski MotorSports LLC Manchester NH tom@banskimotorsports.com www.banskimotorsports.com |
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| sidney004 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Quote:
Calipers are crucially important from a thermal reliability point of view, but when it comes to stopping power, assuming the same rotor diameter, piston diameters, master cylinder, vehicle characteristics(mass, CG, wheelbase, etc) and most importantly tires; physics dictates that the coefficient of friction of the pads is the predominent factor in generating the braking torque. http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/The ... f%20Braking%20Systems.pdf |
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Posted on: 2008/12/17 4:59
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| Aardwolf | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Will this be a daily driver car? I've been happy with Carbotech pads. Try the Bobcat perhaps.
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Posted on: 2008/12/17 14:51
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| SpectatorRacing | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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If you're just learning about brakes, take $17 of your $1000 and buy this book:
High-Performance Brake Systems: Design, Selection, and Installation (by James Walker), available at Amazon.com. It's the perfect entry level explanation of all brake components, from pads to rotors to calipers and master cylinders. The last chapter tells you how to modify your own car and select the right components. It should take you all of two hours to read and you will learn significantly more than you thought you needed to know... |
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Posted on: 2008/12/17 20:59
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| Randyj75 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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I have a set of J55's on my car, w/ slotted rotors, S/S brakes lines. Hawk HPS pads, and Synthetic fluid. Believe me, the brakes are amazing; but if you are starting from scratch, as you appear to be, I would follow Jeff's advice and go w/ the C6 calipers. You can never have enough surface area.
Randy |
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Posted on: 2008/12/18 4:05
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'90 Corvette, M6,a few mods, more to come 
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| sidney004 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Quote:
Interestingly you actually can have too much pad surface area; radiation is a major component of heat transfer at the elevated temperatures that a rotor operates at,as you increase pad surface area or utilize dual calipers(this is the reason along with unsprung mass that you never see these anymore) you impede the cooling of the rotor. The braking force is independent of surface area, but a small pad surface area will rapidly overheat. Practically, increased pad surface area is a benefit because the pad will have reduced temperatures and greater longevity, the larger pad surface could result in increased pad taper, especially in a single or dual piston design. Bottom line, you are right the greater pad area of the C5 caliper is better and the recommended book by James Walker is a very good one, that is where I get most of my info from(along with having worked in Aerospace many years ago.) |
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Posted on: 2008/12/18 6:01
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| Notorious | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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I've had Energy Suspension brand poly bushings in my car for several years with no problems. No matter what you get, make sure they are graphite impregnated to prevent squeaking. The ES bushings also come with a special lube to be used when installing them. You can buy them separately but the best deal if you're changing everything is to buy their set for the entire car. It comes with everything except sway bar bushings which you order separately due to the various bar sizes, depending on model year and suspension options. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/18 16:31
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| CentralCoaster | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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The graphite impregnated isn't good enough. The bushings are too fat and the sides get compressed when tightened causing them to rub and squeak eventually. The quick-fix is to just not tighten the bolts all the way, but then you get more slop and sorta defeat the purpose of new bushings.
I narrowed the control arms slightly on a bench grinder so the bushings would slide in further and not bind up. Although later I removed the from the car and put in spherical rod ends. Use the lube that comes with the poly bushings, it's thick as snot. Do not coat the outer diamter of the bushing though. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/18 19:06
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| grind4it | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Thanks, I'll buy it this weekend
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Posted on: 2008/12/19 20:28
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| rayquayle | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Jeff, I have a set of your early C4 brackets that you were kind enough to ship to my APO address. I'm now in the process of getting the rest of the parts together and the C6 calipers look great. From Danspeed1's post it sounds like you can supply the calipers and abutment brackets too. Are the C6 Base/Z51 calipers red as in your picture or black as in Danspeed1's? What would it cost for the caliper and abutment bracket? What I'd like to do is get one caliper and abutment bracket to verify this will fit behind my Dymags. If they don't, I'm only out the cost of one caliper and bracket. If they do fit, I can come back for the rest of the pieces. Thanks. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/20 10:46
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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JeffVette. Can you paint the calipers any colour? I see some C6 Z51 brakes sometime in 2009. I am thinking of a grey or silver. Red wouldn't look good imo. Also can I use the rest of my braking system from the general?
I think the 13.4" rotor would look awesome, and much needed stopping power for the 421. Plus it would finish off the car. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/20 12:38
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Those look great! |
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Posted on: 2008/12/20 12:39
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| patgizz | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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after some reading elsewhere that C6 Z51 brakes fit under 17" A mold wheels, i had my uncle at the dealership order me the Z51 abutments. we'll try it when i get home from florida.
i already have the calipers and adapter brackets and c5 abutments. if the caliper will clear i'll order rotors and make sure it will have its full range of motion with pads/rotors installed.. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/20 18:37
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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You are foolish to run the C6 Z51 setup inside a 17" A-mold rim.   |
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Posted on: 2008/12/21 0:50
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Ray, they are a dark gray color. I refinished them for Dan. And also refinished the red C6 calipers. Caliper for either the C5 or C6 calipers is 110, and the abutment is around 40 if I remember correctly. I can pretty mush say if you have the Series I Dymags, the brakes won't fit. The spokes sit in and will hit the face of the caliper. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/21 0:59
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Any color. I could even do pink for you. Moni might like that. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/21 1:00
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| patgizz | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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you know what they say about opinions...
clearance is clearance. i've got 1/16" from caliper to rim on my vic's winter wheels - no issues. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/21 1:22
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Take into consideration thermal expansion. Caliper flex. What do I know. It's your car. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/21 1:24
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| Danspeed1 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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I think I may have paid extra for poweder coating, but i was well worth it. Truely some of the best work I have seen. The local guys around my area suck. Two months and the calipers would be all chipped up. I had his stuff on the car for about 6 months before I sold it, and they looked as good as the day I put them on. If he was closer i'd have him do my rims on my C6....
P.S. Jeff,.... Do you offer a C6 ZO6 setup for the C6 Z51? DG |
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Posted on: 2008/12/21 4:44
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1971 Chevelle SS (The Original) 1972 Chevelle SS 454 1995 Corvette Convertible 1996 Ford Explorer 2009 Cadillac CTS-v |
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| 88BlackZ51 | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Posted on: 2008/12/21 6:25
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| rayquayle | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Damn, that's too bad. I'm pretty sure my Dymags are Series I as I purchased them in 1988 (Wow that two decades went by fast!). Thanks again for all your help. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/22 17:28
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Ray Quayle in England '86 Indy PaceCar, 4+3 NCM Founder #2896 NCM Lifetime #672 Graduate of Gordon's School |
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| CentralCoaster | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Where do you put the wheel weights? What happens when a rock gets in there? |
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Posted on: 2008/12/22 18:15
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1985 Z51, ZF6 |
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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It'll take care of itself. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/22 19:10
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| Jeffvette | Re: C4 brake upgrade question - J55 vs. C5 | ||
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Ray, that was just going from my memory. But I did have a set of Series 1's as well that I wanted to use on my race car. And after looking at it, I sold the rims. I never physically installed them to see. Easiest thing to do is find somebody with a C5 and through the dymag up there. |
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Posted on: 2008/12/22 19:12
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