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jsup | Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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So I was at the "other place" (sorry bogus but it's part of the story)
Some guy, probably a kid, goes out and blows $2200 on a C4 with a blown motor. He asked about "which heads" should he get for more performance. All the dam locksteppers step in with AFR AFR AFR AFR AFR. Now, AFR makes a fine product, arguably the best in the market. Tony I am sure is a real nice guy. This kid buys a $2200 car and barely has enough money to fix it. I reccomend that he look at other brands such as Patriot for $800, perhaps Edelbrock, something more in his budget. I then added for the cost of AFR he can get the Patriot heads, a cam, 1.6 rockers, and a tune, and have tens of dollars left over. Well, I was called an idiot. That only an idiot would not buy AFR heads. I have to ask...WTF is it with people. They grasp on this one thing and in a pack mentality if you do anything different, you are an idiot. I think part of the subconscious reasons I went with Brodix is that this AFR clique just pissed me off. And, BTW, I have read on some other forums that people bench tested Brodix and they out flowed the AFR. So what's the BFD. If you mention anything like that in certain circles, the vultures come out and try to eat you alive. One idiot told me I was leaving 40 HP on the table from AFR to Brodix. How can this guy be taken seriously? I don't know. I don't think you're helping anyone who asks a question if you simply spout brand name crap. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:25
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red_johnny | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
On Sabbatical
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Yeah, I ran into the same thing when I had to do what I had to do a few years ago. People dont care if you have the money to fix the vette or not. They think that if you bought the vette you should set aside 90% of the money you make just to fix it up if or when it breaks down. F@$k that!! IMO if you come across a repair that you can not afford then you HAVE to do the cheapest thing smoking to get you back on the road IF that is the primary means of transportation. Even if its not you can only do what you can to get it back on the road. No where does it state on ANY corvette label that you can only put parts made from gold on it....people are just nuts and they are lemmings too
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:33
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CentralCoaster | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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I'm not sure how to help you...
Put some Zaino on it and call me in the morning. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:38
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Ya know, when a poor slob comes to the interweb seeking help, why would someone go out of their way to try to sell a brand over trying to understand the entirety of the guys situation and offer solutions based on what the guy wants and needs.
CFI-EFI is wonderful for this and people get all pissed off at him for not carrying the "company line".... I don't know, it just pisses me off. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:42
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Would it be against forum rules to pre-ban someone? Think I can talk Bogus into it?
I get a PM from idiot on another board telling me again that a set of AFRs ALONE will out perform a set of Patriots with a cam, 1.6rrs, and a tune. He tells me, with absolutely NO EVIDENCE that there's 30 HP left on the table. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:47
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TommyT-Bone | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Chair-man of the bored
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Anybody who buys a C4 with a blown motor for $2200
has their hands full. I hope he has either skills or money. Even with the skills it's got to cost some coin. Don't let the boys in the Conga line piss you off. They don't deserve a second thought. Find something else to piss you off. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:54
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cuisinartvette | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Some people have never turned a wrench in their lives and view themselves as an authority based on what they have read. Dont take that person seriously. For the guys budget you gave the right advice.
In the meantime if they want to tout themselves as a know it all and start handing out advice let em have their fun. Usually a newb from some other forum who has vast knowledge in that arena will see that and flame them outta the water, it happens. I know who youre referring to and he is a nice guy but sometimes I gotta sit back and chuckle a little and shake my head..He doesnt know any better. Theres nothing wrong with your Brodix heads at all. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:55
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red_johnny | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
On Sabbatical
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Yeah, there are other things that could piss you off....come here and let me kick you swiftly in the nutz....I think that would tick you off a bit JK
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:56
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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[quote]Anybody who buys a C4 with a blown motor for $2200
has their hands full. I hope he has either skills or money. Even with the skills it's got to cost some coin. Don't let the boys in the Conga line piss you off. They don't deserve a second thought. Find something else to piss you off. :tard] I'm not pissed AT them, I feel sorry for the guy with the motor getting all kinds of bad advice that is going to cost him time, money, and aggravation and the car won't run the way he wants. I remember when people were all tied up in knots over computer speed. The old "I have a pentium such and such".....Fact of the matter is with the right components, a "slower" chip would smoke these "faster" computers. Same thing here. All style over substance. Just get the fastest and you can be part of the gang. We can all stand around and slap each other in the back. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:57
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Quote:
Some people have never turned a wrench in their lives and view themselves as an authority based on what they have read. Dont take that person seriously. For the guys budget you gave the right advice. I PMed the guy and told him to come here. I don't really care what people think of my heads, or anything else. Not to say I don't get off when people say "nice car" and mean it. But if they didn't I wouldn't care. I build things for ME, not someone else.. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:59
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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CentralCoaster | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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There's a reason internet advice is free.
Ask me about managing your retirement portfolio, or reviving your marriage, and see how far it gets you. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 0:59
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cuisinartvette | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Jsup, most street cars wil haul ass with 240-250 cfm, anything else...
Heck, Ive never even owned a set of AFRs, only worked on them. Because they are a mark others try to measure up to too many start to believe that if you arent making 300/230 on the bench then the car is gong to be a turd...not true. I have a set of heads that everyone would rip on because they were a red headed step child when they came out. With enough work they go about 302 but sheesh, the motor is built to holy hell, probably wont idle below12-1300 wont come on til 3500-4000 rpm, and may see 1-2000 miles a year-If I ever get it on the road lol. Not a real streetable thing but IMO thats where you need a big head. Quote: I build things for ME, not someone else.. Yup, same here. What I like most would hate on the street. It suits me and thats all I care about. Im no expert, just my opinion. Dont sweat it. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:04
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Jsup, most street cars wil haul ass with 240-250 cfm, anything else... That's the point. Unless the motor is built to take advantage of what a particular part has to offer, what's the point of blowing a lot of extra money on it, especially if you don't have the money? |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:07
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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cuisinartvette | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Just another way for some to say "I have the money, you dont".
Dik comparisons. hey, my block says Hecho en Mexico on it....No biggie. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:10
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RollaMo-LT4 | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Trivia Winner
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jsup, from what I can understand of the posts you did your best to offer the best advice for the application/budget.
If they chose not to listen, not much you can do about it. :thumbleft: |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:11
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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jsup, from what I can understand of the posts you did your best to offer the best advice for the application/budget. Actually, the OP got the point and actually said toward the end that perhaps the AFRs were a waste of money. Then of course, out comes the calvary... Man, I can see not helping people, I try to stay silent if it's a topic I know nothing about, but to try to HURT someone so you can feel better is down right creul. Anyone buying a 2200 car with a $1500 budget isn't a guy who can afford to be sucked down the rat hole by idiots. If anything came of it I hope the OP takes a step back and understands that interweb advice is only worth 1/2 what you pay. Ya know, I asked a lot of questions. I believed few of the answers and verified through different sources. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:14
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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tobijohn | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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I love situations like this as it gives me a chance to trot out my favorite Mark Twain quote. Unfortunately, I get to use it almost as often as TouringMike does with his "wings" pic:
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing." |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:14
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John 1996 LT4 coupe black/black 160 Tstat, K&N, Hypertech PPIII (for the fans), CAGS, Nitto 555 EPs, 275/315s, Chrome A-molds, a little tint and some black-outs AIRFOIL FREE! |
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Quote:
jsup, from what I can understand of the posts you did your best to offer the best advice for the application/budget. Actually, the OP got the point and actually said toward the end that perhaps the AFRs were a waste of money. Then of course, out comes the calvary...when he started thinking for himself that drove them nuts. Man, I can see not helping people, I try to stay silent if it's a topic I know nothing about, but to try to HURT someone so you can feel better is down right creul. Anyone buying a 2200 car with a $1500 budget isn't a guy who can afford to be sucked down the rat hole by idiots. If anything came of it I hope the OP takes a step back and understands that interweb advice is only worth 1/2 what you pay. Ya know, I asked a lot of questions. I believed few of the answers and verified through different sources. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:15
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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CentralCoaster | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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I'm gonna start a new forum where users are ranked by their dick size, wallet size, car payment, and the size of their girlfriend's tits.
Then anyone that disagrees with someone ranked above them will be removed. I'm still working out the exact formula... |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:15
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Livin_the_dream | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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I never understood this type of stuff either . It's still a SBC its just in a Vette.
However you still have some in every crowd. Never bought into that hype of just because it is the most expensive its the best. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:19
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Quote:
I'm gonna start a new forum where users are ranked by their dick size, wallet size, car payment, and the size of their girlfriend's tits. I know where you can farm for membership. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:19
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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cuisinartvette | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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OMG, post 77 and 79 on that thread, that is freakin hilarious!!!!
I needed a good laugh. Wonder if i can help that dude out somehow. I always respect the guy who struggles to keep his car going and doing things the hard way. Climb the learning curve quick. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:21
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Livin_the_dream | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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Quote:
I'm gonna start a new forum where users are ranked by their dick size, wallet size, car payment, and the size of their girlfriend's tits. humm the add alcohol instant azzhole forum |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:21
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TommyT-Bone | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Chair-man of the bored
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Quote:
I love situations like this as it gives me a chance to trot out my favorite Mark Twain quote. Unfortunately, I get to use it almost as often as TouringMike does with his "wings" pic: Ive seen it before and I'm sure I'll see it again. LOL |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:33
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Ya know, sometimes there are considerations such as reliability and cost, that are more important than power. What is so hard to understand about that.
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:34
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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MK 82 | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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Quote:
I'm gonna start a new forum where users are ranked by their dick size, wallet size, car payment, and the size of their girlfriend's tits. Damn, I will be a God! |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:35
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96 CE Roadster LT4 |
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Quote:
Quote: Great answer!!!!! |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:38
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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PeteK | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Moderator
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I have always been on a tight budget, and have done my work myself.
Most of what I learned over the years was trial and error. Usually when I post my tech thoughts, they are disputed, but I know better., I never argue on the internet, it is too frustrating. My sanity is more important than winning the debate. I would not sweat it. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:40
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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I have always been on a tight budget, and have done my work myself. I've already won the debate. The OP said AFR is not good for his application. I've been where he is. Money is tight, gotta get the car to run, he can go down a slippery hole pretty quickly. Serious......I am just trying to prevent this guy from getting hurt. I think through the arguments we exposed what was going on. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:43
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PeteK | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Moderator
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It seems everyone does like to drink the afr kool aid.
I picked up my edelbrocks with less than 1k miles on them for $400, and had a friend ort them. My 383 runs 12 flat every run. Proof you do not need a whole lot of cylinder head to run well. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 1:49
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Jer | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Guru Newb
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I'm running a set of Edelbrock Performers and am happy with them. I got the impression that some folks think total flow is correlated with power, but with a TPI and stock cam, spending more money didn't seem to make sense to me. That, and I didn't feel like waiting for AFRs!
Anyone with a bit of automotive experience can tell you any project will end up nickle and diming itself to way more than what was planned. Once you add up all the extra gaskets and tools you need, the project ends up costing way more than just the parts planned. I knew a ton of guys growing up with half done project cars because they didn't have the dough to finish them. I was just as broke as them but figured out early on you need to make a decent income to enjoy the automotive hobby (this motivated me through grad school). Cars cost money. Deal with it or pick a cheaper hobby. The kid with the $2k C4 probably has a C4 worth $2k. He will end up throwing time and money at it and finally realize it is a money pit. Sometimes it is cheaper to pay more for a better car. I had always gotten the impression on the other forum some guys got an ego trip giving advice as if they were experts like Joe Sherman or David Vizard. You always read the same advice just recycled. Advice on the internet is sometimes worth what you pay for. What bugs me the most is the disinformation. Bad information is worse than no information. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 3:20
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Touringmike | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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I'm gonna start a new forum where users are ranked by their dick size, wallet size, car payment, and the size of their girlfriend's tits. I guess I'm out of that clique/forum. Married for 36 years, wife can play soccer with her chest-and she don't need to bend over; got 2 Grand-kids, 1 kid in college, another still in High school. I take so many different drugs, Big Jim and the twins are a long lost memory. Equity loan on the house that runs for another 6 years, paying off the college kid's car at $45/week for the next year. Mid-life crisis passed me by 20 years ago, boy am I glad. No Balla here. Sorry. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 3:35
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ยด85 4+3 |
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Quote:
I'm running a set of Edelbrock Performers and am happy with them. I got the impression that some folks think total flow is correlated with power, but with a TPI and stock cam, spending more money didn't seem to make sense to me. That, and I didn't feel like waiting for AFRs! Right. The problem is that when your experience conflicts with product marketing, some people take it personally. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 3:35
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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bogus | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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this is tragic...
Why can't people understand there are more thing than the last 30hp? There are budgets to consider. Not everyone DESIRES that last 30hp, either. It's one of the thing that I railed against in regards to gutting catalytic converters. You can get Edelbrock heads for the price of one AFR... and guess what? Your car is back on the road that much faster.... At the cost of what? 30? 40hp? Wow. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 6:19
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cuisinartvette | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Mike....
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 7:00
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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this is tragic... I am catching a ration of crap over there becuase of this thread.. seems they rather abuse me than deal with the facts. If, big FKN if, there is even 30 HP to be left on the table. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 15:05
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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cuisinartvette | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Youre wasting your breath although your intentions are good.
Its just how forums are.. Some listen to and recognize good advice, some wait for the 1 out 100 to tell them what they want to hear even if they know the answer isnt correct. Others dont know who to listen to, those are the ones you really need to try and reach. Thats forums for ya, they are all like that. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 15:18
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
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Youre wasting your breath although your intentions are good. Yeah, I know. What I find funny is that they are taking it personally when they have no personal stake in it. They attack me personally and I'm just laughing at it. Why do people take this brand loyality crap so dam personally? Ridiculous. The more I point out the insanity the more insane they get. It's actually amusing. They prefer to attack me than defend their position. I don't know, for all the years I have been on different boards I have never seen such a childish display of ignorance. No one wants to discuss the points as adults, they just want to validate their ill informed position. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 15:24
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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Midnight85 | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Guru
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You experienced exactly what is
happening over there. People giving out so much wrong information, it's shameful. As to the AFR head thing, I'll bet the majority of them wouldn't know an AFR head if it bit them on the ass. They're just repeating what they heard someplace else or on another thread. I ran into the same crap when I bought my Hedman headers. A bunch told me I would be much better off with EM, Melrose, or some other super high priced piece. Nobody asked or gave a damn that I wasn't going to race the car. My Hedmans fit good and the exhaust fumes are going out the ass end of the car, job done. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 15:27
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HORSEPOWER! Some is good, more is better, too much is just right. |
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bogus | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Grand Imperial Pooh-Bah
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Youre wasting your breath although your intentions are good. Any form of advise is that way... people are looking for some kinda self actualization of their own fantasy... the more people you ask, the greater the likelyhood of finding that dream match... |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 15:29
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MK 82 | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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When you wrestle with a pig you will both get muddy but the pig will love it.
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 15:35
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96 CE Roadster LT4 |
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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When you wrestle with a pig you will both get muddy but the pig will love it. Than call me a pig....... :thumbright: |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 15:45
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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PeteK | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Moderator
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I actually purchased (against my better judgement) a new set of the afr eliminators about 10 months ago. I wish I had more time to experiment. I would like to remove my edelbrocks, and install the afr's for a direct comparison. Time will not allow it though. I have plans to install them on a 406 that I have on the stand. Time will tell if they are all they are hyped up to be.
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 16:02
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Quote:
I actually purchased (against my better judgement) a new set of the afr eliminators about 10 months ago. I wish I had more time to experiment. I would like to remove my edelbrocks, and install the afr's for a direct comparison. Time will not allow it though. I have plans to install them on a 406 that I have on the stand. Time will tell if they are all they are hyped up to be. Makes no difference on a different motor. Has to be on the same motor to be a real comparison. Like I said, I am confident AFR is a great product. It just isn't a one size fits all solution. The fact that no independent house has done a comparison on the same motor taking heads on and off and posting numbers kinda indicates that the people who know, know it's all hype. Kinda like you say about vigilante converters. Great product, but overkill for 90% of the applications. Most people don't NEED a billet housing. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 16:07
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Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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dan0617 | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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Most of those guys don't understand the whole velocity thing with heads. They are all tied up with brand name. AFR's might be the best (might not either) out of the box, but no matter what the name on the head it needs to be sized to match the cam, intake, converter, gears, etc. That is MUCH more important than the name on the head. Take the best flowing 220CC runner AFR heads and put them on with the stock cam and TPI and you will likely be slower than you were stock. SO, you could argue that the stock heads are better than AFR, right? I know ol'RJ had AFR's and got better results with ported Dart heads. I know Vic'89 is running some seriously fast times with reworked stock 113 casting heads. I seriously doubt he would do any better with AFR's with his combo. And it is possible he would do worse. I chose reworked 113's ported, coated, and bigger vavles because I got them for $500 used, assembled and shipped. Then I sold my stock 113 heads for $300. So for $200 I got heads reworked by Precision Motorsports that have about 3000 miles on them and they still look and work like they were redone yesterday. Again, it is a port velocity thing with these heads, and having a cam and intake to maximize that. You gave the guy the right advice. My advice would have been for him to decide exactly what he wants to use the car for, find a head size category to fit that use, shop the used market if he is on a budget, then make sure he swaps the cam and possibly intake to match those heads. Also consider the converter and gears. Big cam and heads and miniram need high stalls and low gears to work best. Brand name is not that critical it is about the least important thing, size and a good port job is. You gave him the right advice for the info you had on his car, future setup, budget, etc. Don't sweat the bashers.
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 16:09
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ยด89 Vert, 383, 230/236 cam, AFR 195's, LT Headers, HSR intake, 2800 stall, Zex 200 shot, ET Street Radials, tune by me. Runs were with D36 3.07's. On spray, 10.55 @ 132.78, 1.55 60 ft. On motor, 12.08 @ 113.15, 1.66 60 ft. |
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PeteK | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Moderator
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Quote: All true. As I said, I wish I had time to experiment, but my new job sucks up most of my time. My Edlebrocks allow my 383 to run almost identical et's as my ported l-98 heads, but make 4 mph more They are 20 cc's smaller than my ported 113 castings, and have great throttle response. Edelbrocks have ben knocked for years, but that undesirable head sure works well on my junk. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 16:14
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Z51L9889 | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Guru Newb
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Jsup:
I think you did exactly what you should have done. You pointed out that there are other options that will work better for the OP's situation and he acknowledged it, so I think your mission is complete. BTW -- I sent the OP a PM backing you up and I suggested he seriously consider your advice. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 17:28
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jsup | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Elite Guru
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Jsup: It became sport after that. :thumbright: |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 17:37
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_________________
Parts don't make power, engines make power. |
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jhammons01 | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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jsup, one would have to go to school for while to understand Fluid Dynamics. Flow, Conductance etc.
I went to School for that, I got a degree in Physics AND I almost have earned the title of Physicist in Vacuum Technology. I would have to spend a few hours calculating out the conductance on all of the Engines internal parts to say if this head or that head is better. The smallest or lowest orifice will dictate the CFM for the rest of the entire system....and that is a law of physics one cannot argue. Secondly, anyone wonder whats the use of a Plenum? Why different sizes would make any difference at all? Fluid Dynamics are a very fascinating thing when dealing in Vacuum and Flow. I'm with you, There are a Ton of different ways one can get to a reasonable solution. |
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 18:02
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CentralCoaster | RE:Can I rant for a moment....... | ||
Senior Guru
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The plenum is basically your constant pressure air source that isolates the throttling inlet from the tuned intake runners. It has to be a certain size to prevent the ports from effecting the pressure at nearby ports, and also to stall the air coming in. Go larger than that and you gain basically nothing. It would also probably depend on the location and orientation of the ports.
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Posted on: 2008/2/26 18:40
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